The MRM Shouldn’t Be Given To Alex Jones And Henry Makow

A week ago Mr. Smith informed us that John the Other, managing editor of AVfM, was a conspiracy theorist and deep into conspiracy theory.  Until Mr. Smith wrote that comment I was completely unaware of JtO’s real agenda and loyalties as I don’t have the time to read every article at AVfM.  JtO isn’t a member of the Paleo-Game Cult because he doesn’t believe in game or the paleo diet.  This makes him a conspiracy theorist in the mold of Alex Jones and Henry Makow, both of whom he uses as primary sources.  (Alex Jones is a man who thinks that world is run by a conspiracy taking orders from actual living demons.  Yes, you read that right.  Henry Makow’s “contribution” to anti-feminism consists of bullshit like a strange fascination with Dick Cheney’s penis and aruging that young men should be castrated.)  JtO has also used AVfM to promote conspiracy theories about money and finance which not only has nothing to do with mens rights, but also serves to undermine the cause of mens rights by painting the MRM as nothing but conspiracy theory nutjobs.  Today, JtO wrote another conspiracy theory article for AVfM.  Let’s look at the bullshit JtO wrote.

Prior to his death, documentary film producer Aaron Russo disclosed the content of a conversation with his friend Nicolas Rockefeller of the Rockefeller family. What follows is a transcription of an interview shown in full in Russo’s documentary “America, Freedom to Fascism”.

“We were at the house one night, and we were talking and he [Nicolas Rockefeller] started laughing.Aaron, what do you think women’s liberation was all about? And, I said, I had pretty conventional thinking about it at that point, and I said I think it’s about women having the right to work – get equal pay with men, just like they won the right to vote.

You know, and he started to laugh, and he said you’re an idiot, and I said why am I an idiot? He said let me tell you what that was about. We the Rockefellers, funded that. We funded women’s lib. You know, and we’re the ones who got it all over the newspapers and television, the Rockefeller Foundation. He says…you wanna know why? There were two primary reasons. And they were one reason was: we couldn’t tax half the population before women’s lib. And the second reason was: now we get the kids in school at an early age, we can indoctrinate the kids how to think.

This way it breaks up their family. The kids start looking at the state as the family. At the school, at the officials, as their family. Not at their parents teaching them. And so, those are the two primary reasons for women’s lib, which I thought up to that point was a noble thing. You know, when I saw their intentions behind it, where they were coming from and they created it and the thought of it, I saw, I saw the evil behind what I thought was a noble venture.”

Taken alone, this revelation from Russo might be dismissed, and indeed, although its veracity has never been seriously challenged, it is ignored by the entirety of mainstream media.

(It should be noted that Aaron Russo worked with Alex Jones.)  Of course it’s veracity has been seriously challenged.  Among MRAs PMAFT has done it at least twice, and I will do so here.  There is no “Nicholas Rockefeller of the Rockefeller family”.  You can get lists of everyone in the Rockefeller family, and there is no Nick on those lists.  Aaron Russo’s politics were known at the time that he was supposedly told this.  Why would a Rockefeller tell their plans to their enemies?  It makes no sense.  The parts about “not being able to tax half the population” and “getting kids in school early” are historically and economically inaccurate.  Both of those things had already happened decades before feminism came around.  In other words, every single thing about this conspiracy theory is impossible either because it’s physcially impossible or because it requires us to believe that the Rockefellers were so incompetent that they couldn’t sucessfully execute this conspiracy in the first place.

Not only is conspiracy theory wrong, but it has other fundamental problems.  There’s the practical problem of conspiracy theory driving away men who would otherwise be MRAs, but think the MRM is all about conspiracy theory bullshit instead of mens rights.  It also gives a weapon to our enemies to easily discredit the MRM.  (Other groups like white supremacists who are allowed to hang around the MRM also do this.)  Those aren’t the big problems.  The big problem with conspiracy theory is that is doesn’t hold women accountable for what they have done.  Conspiracy theories treat women as victims of brainwashing so they transfer responsiblity from women to the Rockefellers (or whoever else the conspiracy theory says is behind feminism).  When a conspiracy theory talks about the Rockefellers (or whoever else in involved), it’s always a group of men.  Conspiracy theories about feminism literally transfer the responsiblity of feminism and women’s actions to men.  Conspiracy theory acts as a white knighting enterprise.

What does this all mean?  Belief in conspiracy theory goes straight to the top of AVfM.  Not only does AVfM’s managing editor believe in conspiracy theory, but conspiracy theory websites are on their blogroll, specifically Hawaiian Fat Blob and Inmalafide.  (Those websites also have the problem of linking AVfM to white supremacism and other things of that level.)  Either Paul Elam is a conspiracy theorist, or he’s completely AWOL on this important matter.  Either way, given that AVfM was supposed to be the number one MRM website on the internet, this means that for the next decade no progress will made in advancing mens rights or fighting back against feminism.  There was a MRM between 1970 and 2000 or so.  I’m sure that suprises a lot of you because you have never heard of them.  The reason why you have no knowledge of the MRM for that period of time is because it was dominated by conspiracy theorists, and they did nothing but talk about the how feminism was the work of the Rockefellers or the Jews or the Freemasons.  The only very meager progress on mens rights was made in the fathers rights area (which is important) by fathers rights groups which were not associated with the conspiracy theorists.  There is a clear connection between conspiracy theory and an unwillingness to engage in real action against feminism.  Why has Glenn Sacks actually had some (very limited) success against feminism?  Because he’s not a conspiracy theorist.

Another thing it means is that the whole MRA-PUA debate (and subsets of it like the Elam-Frost debate) are not arguments between MRAs and PUAs, but arguments between two different types of conspiracy theorist, Jones-Makow conspiracy theorists vs. Paleo-Game Cult conspiracy theorists.  Whoever wins, men lose.  Defeating the Paleo-Game Cult just hands over the MRM to Alex Jones and Henry Makow for at least the next ten years.

Lots of men get disillusioned with the lack of progress by the MRM.  One of those men was the blogger at Foriegn Women Only.

Do you remember the part of the Forest Gump movie where Forest stops running and simply says “I just didn’t feel like running anymore”. Well, I feel the same way about writing and reading about Men Rights and gender issues… I just don’t feel like writing or reading about these issues any more… I’m not mad… I’ve simply become somewhat indifferent over the past year. It’s difficult to explain, but I guess I would sum it up by saying that my passion for writing and reading about these issues has been somewhat sapped by several observations:

I’m feeling the same way.  Only the most minimal of tangible improvements have been made, and those were done by men outside of the greater mass of MRAs like Glenn Sacks.  For me, that’s not the biggest problem right now.  What all of this means for me is that my work fighting the Paleo-Game Cult was meaningless and useless.  All I have done is make it easier for the Jones-Makow conspiracy theorists to take over.  If I knew what I know now back when I started blogging, I’m not sure I would have bothered.

69 responses to “The MRM Shouldn’t Be Given To Alex Jones And Henry Makow

    • Yes, but Aaron Russo doesn’t know that. To him feminism started in the 60s. His use of antiquated terms like “womens lib” prove that.

      All of this is consistent with Russo being a moron who couldn’t write a historically and economically accurate conspiracy theory. He’s also too stupid to realize that as a movie director he should be thinking about film all the time so he should have had film of the “Nick Rockefeller” if he wanted to make his bullshit believable.

      Russo was a moron who scammed the one group stupider than him, conspiracy theorists.

      • Just adding to Marky Mark’s comment. Feminism started to come into its own in Britain after World War I, when so many young men were killed leaving a significant number of women without husbands of the opportunity of finding one. It was shortly after the end of WWI that women first got the vote in Britain.

        • That played a part, but the greatest single influence on the Suffagettes (proto-first wave feminism), and the Women’s Christian Temperance Movement was Francis Willard who stated in her writings very simple things.

          - Men were corrupt and women were pure and chaste
          - The male prerogative (masculinity and patriarchy) must be destroyed.

        • Then, my point still stands. Russo is historically and economically illiterate and a total moron so he couldn’t write a conspiracy theory that conformed to the history of the last 150 years. He’s wrong and a liar from every possible angle.

  1. BP,

    The reason the MRM wasn’t heard of was because the national media chose not to acknowledge it, let alone disseminate its ideas. I’m old enough to remember when there were only three TV networks (CBS, NBC, & ABC), and if they didn’t mention something, it didn’t happen. The national media (I refuse to call it ‘mainstream’, because there’s nothing mainstream about them) also has a decided liberal, feminist, politically correct bias. For example, they made huge deal over President Nixon’s misdeeds, even though they PALED compared to what Clinton and Obama have both done; ah, but Clinton & Obama are liberal, PC fascists, so they get a pass from the national media.

    MarkyMark

    • The reason the MRM wasn’t heard of was because the national media chose not to acknowledge it, let alone disseminate its ideas.

      I’m glad that’s the case because if the media did acknowledge the MRM, it would forever be associated with kooks. Mens rights would be dead now.

  2. I also read that column and was shocked when I got to the part about the Rockefellers. What a bizarre turn to take, and disappointing for the reasons you listed. Don’t give up, though. If enough people push back, we can throw these conspiracy bums out.

  3. I prefer linking to original studies over articles about studies whenever possible, but the original study isn’t available for free so I’m linking to articles about the study instead:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2008/12/27/lacking-control-drives-false-conclusions-conspiracy-theories-and-superstitions/

    http://alevelpsychology.co.uk/news/interesting/loss-of-control-leads-to-superstition-and-conspiracy-theories.html

    It explains a lot of what we talk about here regarding conspiracy theories. By the way, OneSTDV has a followup post on his blog responding to criticism of his “Jews created vegetarianism as anti-Western plot” conspiracy theory post. The article and the responses are comedy gold. Pseudointellectual stupidity at its best.

    • It makes perfect sense that one reaction to feeling powerless would be to form a conspiracy theory. If we could just take down the 3 or 4 people pulling all the strings, everything would be fine! It’s so much easier than changing the minds of millions of people!

      And I’ve never gone to a Jewish deli and not had either a turkey or a roast beef sandwich.

      • It makes perfect sense that one reaction to feeling powerless would be to form a conspiracy theory. If we could just take down the 3 or 4 people pulling all the strings, everything would be fine! It’s so much easier than changing the minds of millions of people!

        Yes, and this gets to why conspiracy theory can have no place in true anti-feminism. Feminism is a problem created by and supported by women and their white knights. That’s hundreds of millions of people. Conspiracy theory, since it pins the blame on a small group of MEN, is a diversion from the real problems.

  4. To BP:
    I came to realize the same thing over at Dalrocks and since then I’ve barely read his stuff. It is quickly degenerating into a den of conspiracy nuts. I feared the same when I started seeing these articles popping up at AVfM. I want no part of being affiliated with those nuts so I closed up shop to go back to commenting and not blogging. Conspiracy is so prevalent on the internet in general is doesn’t surprise me that its infecting men’s discussions. I think the efforts need to be undertaken outside the internet, where the extremists/conspiracy nuts are neutralized by having to say it in public.

    • I want no part of being affiliated with those nuts so I closed up shop to go back to commenting and not blogging.

      You’re not the only one. I am certain that for every conspiracy theorist that infests the MRM, there are AT LEAST 10 sane men who left the MRM because they wanted nothing to do with those kooks.

      Conspiracy is so prevalent on the internet in general is doesn’t surprise me that its infecting men’s discussions.

      Right. Like I said below, I have seen plenty of internet forums that had nothing to do with mens rights get trashed by conspiarcy theorists. They’re a plague everywhere.

      I think the efforts need to be undertaken outside the internet, where the extremists/conspiracy nuts are neutralized by having to say it in public.

      We need more Glenn Sacks (i.e. real action) in the MRM and less everything else.

      • The big problem with people like Glenn Sacks is that they are literally unwilling to engage and call out the people who are creating laws and policies, i.e. well-funded feminist groups and the politicians who bow to their demands wanting to secure the female vote.

        Those like Glenn Sacks “tone things down” to the point where they bow and scrape and walk on eggshells and nobody ever hears about the issues.

  5. I never read AvfM, but very good points about conspiracy theorists being white knight manginas. Rather unfortunate that gamers and conspiracy nuts have taken over mens rights, discrediting whatever legitimate complaints men have.

    • If what you’re saying is “it’s okay to have some odd beliefs if you keep them separate from MRA” then I could get behind that. I’ll amend my “throw the bums out” sentiment, but people still need to be challenged in circumstances like that. I thought JTO’s article was just fine until I got to the weird part about the Rockefellers; he’d be helping himself most of all if he left that stuff out.

      • If what you’re saying is “it’s okay to have some odd beliefs if you keep them separate from MRA” then I could get behind that.

        The problem with that sentiment is that it never happens with conspiracy theory. There are at least a few gamers who can keep game separate from the MRM. Conspiracy theorists can never do that with conspiracy theory.

        The most telling thing about the problem with conspiracy theorists is that it’s a problem outside of the MRM. I have seen plenty of forums on the internet (that have nothing to do with the MRM) get destroyed by conspiracy theorists. I have seen this happen. I have seen forums on subjects from video games to science fiction TV programs (neither of which ever deal with mens rights obviously) get destroyed by conspiracy theorists. What happened is that one conspiracy theorist shows up and starts talking about conspiracy theory non-stop. The members of the forum try to either show the conspiracy theorist the error of his ways or ignore him, but that doesn’t work. Eventually other conspiracy theorists show up. The members of the forum give up because they have lives so they leave for greener pastures which hands over the forum to conspiracy theorists. When it’s something like video games, then it’s not a big deal because there are other places for video games. The MRM is different because there is only one MRM. If we lose the MRM to conspiracy theorists, we’re looking at a feminist 1000 year reich (at least until civilization collapses since feminists are incapable of running the technolological infrastructure of civilization).

        This is why I can’t let this go about JtO. Conspiracy theorists are an infestation. Where there’s one conspiracy theorist, more are guaranteed to show up. They destroy everything they touch. That’s true regardless of whether we’re talking about the MRM or something else.

  6. Quick Question to BP

    So what is the action plan here. What do you plan to do?

    Are you quitting the MRA? Are you going to bring up this with JtO or merely write about it hoping that it has a telepathic effect?

    Personally, starting today I am blocking all MRA sites except AVfM, Fidelbogen, Forweg and you. I want to congratulate Snark for officially chasing me away.

    This community has an amazing ability of chasing away anyone sane. Unlike you I have great hope and optimism for AVfM. It can always change of course, and if it ever does, I’ll leave there too. For the moment I will pretend that AVfM is the only MRA site on the planet, because that would be the only thing that can keep me sane.

    • Don’t discount some “smaller” MRA parts of the Internet out there. For example on Youtube:

      http://www.youtube.com/user/barbarossaaaa
      http://www.youtube.com/user/Stardusk

      These are two I would listen to.

      The reason the community “chases” people off isn’t because of the odd few idiots who try to shoehorn their conspiracy theory garbage in, it’s because what we advocate for is so far from what the accepted norms are in this sick society.

      • Wow that’s a great point. I had totally forgotten about that.

        Originally I discovered the MRm through YouTube… In fact, the YouTube MRm community is helluva sane-r than the written MRM community.

        Over the past years I have grown to feel like “the MRm is getting worse”, but I just realized that’s not true… It’s not that the MRM is getting worse, it’s that I had been reading more written MRM…

        The nuttiest nutsos will never do videos, because it is very close to real life… Like BP said, the shame of voicing this crap in public is big. BP was saying how we need more in-real-life activism, because that weeds out the nutcases.

        I think YouTube activism seems to be a close second… I think I’ll just start making videos soon, and try to contribute that way.

        • The MRM has not been getting worse, it’s just been getting bigger. The message IS getting out there. This is evidenced by the fact that mainstream media outlets have been running hit pieces to try to misrepresent or demonize us. Where before we would have been dismissed as “small dicked faggots” or some other worthless ad hominem or appeal to ridicule.

          It’s gotten to the point where the arguments on our side are so persuasive, the evidence against feminists, their false statistics, bogus rhetoric and even sometimes their enablers is so concrete that they have no real option but to try to run propaganda against us.

        • @Observer

          Trust me, I am quite immune to media demonizations or manboob distortions lol… I took full blame for mis-perceiving that the “MRm is getting worse”.

          Let me break it down for ya:

          -> The VideoMRM is much more sane and has a lot smarter folks and less kooks

          -> The WrittenMRM is less sane and attracts some kooks

          What happened is that I initially was entirely immersed into the video MRM, but over the years I started spending more and more time in the written MRM…

          This caused me to see more kooks on a daily basis… But my error was assuming the movement had changed… It didn’t, I just spent more time in the worse part of it.

          I’ve made this error before

          I made the error of seeing the game community becoming more and more insane…

          Until one day I realized this is because I was meeting more roissy-ites on a daily level.

          It’s not that the game community got more insane, it’s that I was more often among members of the more insane sub-niche.

        • I would say almost all of us went the same path. For me the path was:

          1.) PUA (It got me laid by below average chicks, so what?)
          2.) Tom Leykis (It helped me save time and money)
          3.) Barbarosssa (Introduced me to mens-issues)

          4.) Roissy (The biggest drop was between Barb and Roissy in terms of feeling like I was in a deep pit of nihilism.)
          5.) “Gamesphere” (Rock Bottom of extreme beliefs.)

          6.) Alek & Blackpill (The realization that “Hey, its not normal to feel this way, I should stop reading these crazy-people”).
          7.) Sunny skies and feeling normal again.

          Fortunately this all came and went within a year for me. Some poor guys spend YEARS (even decades) in the depths of this garbage. Just like Alek said, a wasted year. A lost year of regression in personal development from my earlier days. I was entirely socially competent before, I just didn’t realize it.

        • ybm, who did you read in the “gamesphere?” what specific blogs would you call your rockbottom? for me it was roissy. in mala fide was my breaking point, even before he added the guest writers. when he would do his sunday linkage and i’d see the types of other people in that world i knew the bad outweighed any good.

        • The very bottom, the hellish bottom of my journey through the gamesphere was the infamous wimminz. He represented to me the end of the line for whatever path the gamesphere readership were travelling down. I saw the glimmers of his beliefs in IMF, Roissy, even some of the other, less well known writers like Generation Nihilism.

          Slightly above those in the eight circle of game-hell were Whiskey and IMF. They just seemed like such dark and depressing places. I am in no way advocating rape hysteria, misandry, or false accusations, but the comment sections of those two sites made me very uncomfortable. I felt a vague menace of a desire to lash out at everyone for no reason and I had to avoid them permanently.

          They had such a hate on for BP and Alek that I went to their sites out of interest. It truly was a wake-up call that no, what these people are writing is not “normal” and they are not well-adjusted members of society. These were people who actively wanted death and destruction on a massive scale to “get back” at those whom they feel control their destiny: women, the wealthy, jews, etc.

          Its ok to be critical of society and what is happening, but I have didnt grow up in a world anything like theirs. I grew up upper class (top 5% of family incomes in Canada) and my problems with women were two simple things I corrected without any game at all:

          1.) I went on a diet
          2.) I introduced myself

          I have nothing in common with the gamesphere, I however, have a passionate desire to see our society fixed to treat men fairly and a return to the optimism of past generations. Optimism and Hard Work is the way to change things to make men (and where men go, so do women and children, and society) care again. There is no optimism in the gamesphere, only pain, depression, nihilism, and eventual annihilation.

        • They had such a hate on for BP and Alek that I went to their sites out of interest. It truly was a wake-up call that no, what these people are writing is not “normal” and they are not well-adjusted members of society.

          I get plenty of emails from men with this exact same story. When they come to this blog and Alek’s blog, they have finally found a rational alternative to (blue pill) feminism and (red pill) kooks.

        • “They just seemed like such dark and depressing places.”

          They are. “If you aren’t George Clooney, the only way to score chicks is to completely remake yourself into an asshole who does the opposite of what you think is right in order to conform to what women want in a man, which is programmed by unchangeable genes. Also, black people like to riot and society is collapsing.”

          I feel lucky to have discovered the MRM at about the same time I first heard of these game sites, possibly saving myself a lot of misery and wasted time.

        • @YBM

          You were pretty lucky man, just one year. Most guys waste 3-5 years, which is why guys at puahate are so vicious and hateful.

          Imagine having lost 10 years of your life to this shit and alienating everyone you know and losing all opportunities in life due to the game cult.

          Many guys in PuaHate are in that situation and literally discuss murdering gurus and shit…

          When I read a story like yours I feel two emotions:

          1) pride and joy that I had any part in speeding up your journey
          2) envy

          Gotta be honest lol… I feel envy at all the guys I’ve seen wake up faster. I have a forum wih hundreds of such guys (ex-game forum, used to be PUA forum)… It’s now run by ex-gamers and we wake up PUAs all the time… And I feel both joy and envy at the same time looooolooooloooo

          Just like with diets… I wasted 10 years on fad diets and scams before I finally lost it all… Now I’ve helped a dozen friends lose weight… I usually sit then down, mentor them for a few days/weeks and they lose it all in a few months DONE…

          And at one angle I feel joy and pride, on another I feel envy “fucking bastards, it took me 10 years of torture and sorting through crap to learn that!!”

        • The truly stupid thing about their whole platform is how rife it is with inconsistencies. They basically believe whatever they have to at any given given moment to prop up their own egos, even if those beliefs all contradict each other.

          They spend all this time talking about unchangeable genes and how certain people are destined to be superior to others, especially whites versus blacks. It’s all about killing “pretty lies” about the “blank slate” and behaviorism.

          Then they have daily posts on tons of blogs giving advice on how to overcome the genetics you were born with in order to remake yourself into an alpha male with pickup advice, which is totally a form of behaviorism and blank slate thinking!

          So basically, anyone different than them who is trying to be smart and successful is pursuing a fool’s mission because of genetic determinism and to believe otherwise makes them a stupid leftist blank slate believer. But for them and picking up women, suddenly genetic determinism doesn’t apply and genes can be overcome through hard work.

          They angrily switch back and forth between genetic determinism to behaviorism back to genetic determinism at a whim whenever it props up a viewpoint that will boost their ego. Only intense self-loathing can cause such a blatant disregard of logic in service of self-aggrandizement at all costs. That’s why those sites feel so negative. You end up absorbing that self-loathing unconsciously the longer you read them.

        • Alek, at least you only wasted time in mainstream pua cult. I feel for the guys who waste years in fringe-pua-plus-Rockefeller-conspiracy-fuck-the-niggers-and-spics-fuck-the-leftists-fuck-the-betas-fuck-the-kikes-all-women-are-whores-fuck-the-blank-slate-theory-except-when-it-benefits-me-in-which-case-I-now-say-fuck-genetic-determinism-and-oh-fuck-carbs-too cult.

          Those guys will really have alienated a lot of people and be way more angry when (if?) they ever wake up. The truth at that point may become so shameful that they never even allow themselves to wake up because it will be too painful.

        • @Grizzly

          See this:

          http://aleknovy.com/dating-seduction-sex/dating-seduction/selling-a-lie-is-hard-because-its-hard-to-keep-trying-to-fit-the-consistencies-in/

          I love the concept of cognitive dissonance… John at lifestyle journey was the first to use it to describe gamers… He was also the first to show all the contradictions in game. Its now caught on, and everyone mentions CG and the blind spots and contradictions in game.

          A lot of people credit me for pointing out the contradictions in game, but all I did was quote John… I mean all of us ex-gamers knew this shit intuitively, but he was the first to distill it.

          I’m assuming you’ve seen john’s posts on the contradictions right?

        • Alek, at least you only wasted time in mainstream pua cult

          True… And even then, I was actually in the most sane 10% of the mainstream game cult (direct, natural etc). In fact, even when I was in the cult, we (the saner gamers) made fun of the more insane 90% of the community… We were the most mainstream fraction and least weird.

          BUT GET THIS

          Even though I was in a 100x less stupid form of game than roissyites, I feel shame when I think back to it… Like I cringe so bad that I almost shit a brick…

          So when I look at roissyites I’m like “holy shit what will happen to them when they wake up?”

          I literally wouldn’t be surprised if they commit suicides when they wake up.

        • I have started reading your blog recently Alek but I never saw that article. Maybe I am your sock puppet like they say! Since no two people can notice the same logical fallacies in game lol

        • It’s not that the MRM is getting worse, it’s that I had been reading more written MRM…

          As bad as things are now, they used to be worse. The MRM, such as it was, was compeletely dominated by conspiracy theorists and other kooks. (It’s no conincidence that no progress against feminism was made.)

          BP was saying how we need more in-real-life activism, because that weeds out the nutcases.

          Another thing real life activism will do is show that conspiracy theorists are all talk and no action. Being purely online allows conspiarcy theorists the pretense of action. What have conspiracy theorists done to actually stop and push back feminism? For that matter what have conspiracy theorists done to stop whoever they believe is behind everything? The answer to both questions is nothing. If I was a conspiracy theorist and believed that there was a plan to murder several billion people about to be executed, posting on the internet would be the least of my concerns. This just proves how useless conspiracy theorists are.

          Anyone can say what they want about Glenn Sacks (and much of the criticism against him is valid), but the fact is he has gotten shit done. He has made improvements in the lives of men. Glenn Sacks has done more than all conspiracy theorists combined.

    • So what is the action plan here. What do you plan to do?

      Are you quitting the MRA?

      I haven’t gotten around to answering this yet because I’m not 100% decided on what I’m doing. That said, here is a partial answer.

      I’m not quitting the MRM as such. It’s more accurate to say that the MRM quit me, to borrow a phrase. What I will do is continue to provide an alternative, the black pill of rational anti-feminism, to (blue pill) feminism and (red pill) pseudo-anti-feminist kooks. Conspiracy theorists are able to be the ebola virus of the internet because people don’t speak up. I’m going to continue speaking up to let the rational majority of anti-feminists out there that there is a rational anti-feminist alternative.

      Another thing I am going to focus on is the MRM in 2020, for lack of a better term. (I agree with Fidelbogen that we need a new name other than “MRM”.) Read this comment on The Spearhead and several subsequent comments on that thread about the experiences of men under 30 due to feminism and their views on feminism and women as a result. I have noticed the same thing those men have. I know Paul Elam has talked about this too. During the Elam-Frost debate, Elam mentioned on AVfM radio that he gets emails from teenage boys who are already fed up with women. (It took me until 30 to get to the same place these teenage boys are at 16 or 17.) Men under 30 are the future of anti-feminism. These men because they have experienced the mothers divorcing and impoverishing their fathers, feminist public schools, being force fed ritalin, all around bad behavior from women and girls with entitlement complexes the size of the moon, etc. aren’t going to be impressed by conspiracy theory that says that women aren’t responsible for their actions, but a cabal of men were. To them the conspiracy theorists are men who were AWOL while pretending to be anti-feminist. Conspiracy theorists will be probably be considered de facto (if not outright) collaborators to feminism by these men. While Fifth Donkey has a lot of problems, I agree with his misandry bubble piece where he says this will come to a head by 2020. There’s the techological aspect to this which will contribute greatly, but that isn’t the only thing. Just as the percentage of white knights in the male population will be going down from now to 2020 (because of death and replacement by the men now under 30), so will the percentage of conspiracy theorists and other kooks be going down in anti-feminism. It used to be that anti-feminism was completely dominated by conspiracy theorists. That is no longer the case as much because more men have become anti-feminist in general, but also because the conspiracy theorists on average are getting older (and will eventually die) to be replaced by the men currently under 30. I’m not sure how exactly I fit into this yet, but at the very least I can show these young men that there were real anti-feminist men out there.

      Are you going to bring up this with JtO or merely write about it hoping that it has a telepathic effect?

      What would be the point of bringing it up with JtO? Such a debate would be pointless. Either he’s a kook in which case he will just put his fingers in his ears and say, “La la la la. I can’t hear you. You work for the Rockefellers”, or he is sane but is using conspiracy theory for an alternate agenda so there would be no debate going on. There’s more going on than opposing points of view particuarly since in the end there may not actually be a difference of opinion as such. If he’s at AVfM recruiting for another (anti-male) cause, then he shouldn’t be debated, but purged from AVfM.

      I’m not sure you appricate all of the possible problems with conspiracy theory. Consider when Susan Walsh said it was compelling that I and other MRAs & MGTOW worked for the Rockefellers for the purpose of implementing genocide. Is Susan Walsh a conspiracy theorist? It’s possible, but since she used someone else’s conspiracy theory another more likely possiblity is that while she isn’t a conspiracy theorist, she is willing to support conspiracy theory because it serves her agenda of enslaving men by accusing rational anti-feminists like myself of being part of conspiracy to implement genocide. With stuff like this happening, not only is there is no basis for a rational debate with conspiracy theorists, but anyone who even supports some conspiracy theory can’t be trusted ever.

      Beyond this, I have an idea for dealing with conspiracy theorists in the MRM, but I can’t discuss it publically because it won’t work if they know about it.

      Personally, starting today I am blocking all MRA sites except AVfM, Fidelbogen, Forweg and you. I want to congratulate Snark for officially chasing me away.

      This community has an amazing ability of chasing away anyone sane. Unlike you I have great hope and optimism for AVfM. It can always change of course, and if it ever does, I’ll leave there too. For the moment I will pretend that AVfM is the only MRA site on the planet, because that would be the only thing that can keep me sane.

      If AVfM purges JtO and prevents any other conspiracy theorist from becoming an author, then there is hope for AVfM. Otherwise it will end up in the same place that the MRM was for decades, in the zone of complete inaction.

      I’m optimistic only because I think the men currently under 30 will be defining anti-feminism in the future. If you think I have a low opinion of AVfM now, it’s nothing compared to what they will think of AVfM (assuming steps aren’t taken by Elam to deal with conspiracy theorists like JtO). Those men will probably regard me a moderate.

  7. These guys are parasites on multiple levels to multiple movements. The word “game” was a much more innocent word before mainstream PUAs and then roissysphere PUAs ruined it. It just meant being good with women in general, not being part of some underground community obsessing over “cracking the code” with pussy begging. Then they started trying to ruin MRM by associating themselves with it so that people would start associating roissysphere PUAs with the MRM movement.

    Now they’re doing the same with the conservative movement. Look at this: http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-is-conservative.html. So basically, they’re now saying that anyone who isn’t racist is not a true conservative. And I believe “traditional gender and sexual norms” is just his way of saying PUA believer. While I’m not a huge fan of mainstream conservatism in its current anemic state, the last thing I want is the liberal, PC media to become aware of this meme and use it to sensationalize and “prove” to the uninformed that all anti-PC, non-liberal movements really are comprised of racists and conspiracy whackos.

    To his credit, I’m surprised OneSTDV didn’t try to claim a “real” conservative must be paleo also.

    • Well that’s a well-thought-out political position. He cares more about a “positive view of this country” than putting our nation’s finances in order. He cares more about “race-influenced cultural policies” then Social Security or Medicare. Sheesh.

  8. On positivity and negativity

    I am always shocked when people describe me as a “positive influence” In contradistinction to the roissy-sphere .. Because I go out of my way to be negative as a way of shocking people out of their cognitive dissonance. 

    So I just went to the place YBM mentioned and I was like HOLY FUCK, this shit is next level negative. It’s literally vomit-inducing bad…

    I swear, I thought I was the epitome of negative… 

    Now I get what ex-roissyites are talking about when they describe “the darkness of roissysphere”

    I was honestly only criticizing gamers based on their comments on general MRA sites… I never visited their blogs much except a random linked post… But I just went to browse a few… Holy shit I’m still in shock…

    • If you really want to be shocked, start paying attention to the people who don’t have blogs themselves but comment most frequently across all of those blogs. They are scary as hell in their darkness, but on bright side they probably won’t go postal because they’re too scared to go outside. I hope.

    • In contradistinction to the roissy-sphere .. Because I go out of my way to be negative as a way of shocking people out of their cognitive dissonance. 

      Clarification…

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to make people feel bad. I use negativity as a way of shocking people and doing a pattern interrupt on their cognitive dissonance. I’m not trying to make friends, I’m trying to wake people up from a deep trance.

      Though, paradoxically, when people do wake up, they do see me positively, which is weird lol. (I don’t just mean roissysphere, I woke up an earlier community the same way).

  9. Yup, real beta. If he were da alfa he would have put on his cocky-funny routine on the HB8 and using the push-pull escalation he would have kino….blah blah blah blah.

    I make silly comments in the grocery store lineup to octogenarian old ladies, sometimes I even help them reach something high up because I am over 6 feet. How much of an omega am i?

    • But the funny thing is, doing a lame indirect pickup line on a woman is not even what anti-game is about. He’s using a strawman.

      • Please don’t turn anti-game into another technique lol…

        All that anti-game means is that you don’t use game… You don’t do or say things to get women. Thats it.

        You say whatever you feel like saying and do whatever you feel like doing. If she likes you good, if she doesn’t she can fuck off…

        That’s that…

        Game = do xyz and abc in order to get pussy

        Anti-Game = do whatever the fuck you feel like doing regardless of pussy

        • I’m not trying to make anti-game into a technique. What I’m saying is this:

          The guy in the supermarket was trying to give an insincere icebreaker in hopes of getting some pussy. He doesn’t really care about her diet or her shopping habits. Here’s the test: do you think if a guy was buying that fruit, he would have said shit about it? No, of course not! He only did it because she’s a chick. He was doing some crude, amateur hour pussy begging and running really lame indirect game.

          I agree anti-game is about saying what you want and not giving a fuck what the girl does in response. I don’t think that’s what he was doing though. If he was saying what he wanted to say, he’d have been like “Hey, you seem interesting/attractive and I want to get to know you better. Let’s hang out and gab a drink tonight.” Or whatever. If he really didn’t care about what the girl thought about him, he’d just hit on her and get shot down and call it a day. But using that small talk fruit opener, he was protecting his ego with subterfuge so that when she walks away he can save face by saying she rejected his indirect opener and never actually turned down a sexual overture.

          To me the anti-game fix to such unsophisticated pussy begging is to step to her directly without bullshit small talk as a pretense or don’t approach her at all if the time and place isn’t right for being direct. The Roissy PUA solution on the other hand is to just look for more sophisticated ways to pussy beg.

          To an anti-gamer, his problem is that he was pussy begging. Period. In the PUA’s eyes the problem isn’t that he was pussy begging, it’s that his pussy begging was too amateur and not complicated enough.

        • I just want to add: that’s what I mean by Roissy using a straw man by calling that anti-game. What the fruit guy did was pussybegging 1.0, the old school way to pussybeg. PUAs have developed a beast called pussybegging 2.0. By using a straw man and equating anti-game with pussybegging 1.0, he frames it as if a man’s only choices in life are between two forms of pussybegging. And when it’s put to a man like that, of course pussybegging 2.0 will seem like the best choice.

        • Youre right…

          There’s like a 99.9% chance that guy was trying to get some response from her, so he was actually a gamer. My comment was almost hypothetical, coz there’s like only a 0.1% chance the guy was genuinely into fruit lol…

          Also, there’s a time and place for not being direct on the opener. Note I’m not saying be indirect… Just be normal.

          Like if you’re standing in line with a chick, you can chat her up about the line… Because this is what you would do with an old grandma or a guy too…

          I don’t know how to explain it, but there’s a difference between doing indirect and doing small-talk. Doing small-talk isn’t pussy begging, it’s being socially calibrated.

          I think an easy test to distinguish the two is “would you do it if it were a guy?” like if you’re in a waitin room you can chat up a chick with small talk, no need to go “hey I like you” to a chick in the waiting room lol. But chatting her up is normal, since you’d do it even if it were a guy or a grandma.

          That said, I think there’s a place for “just being social” at least in terms of your opening. Like if you’re in a club, you can go and open chicks with small talk, and it’s not pussy-begging… Even though you wouldn’t chat up a group of guys.

          What I’m sayin is that it’s subtle… There are no hard and fast rules. And there’s a difference between non-direct and indirect.

          - Non-direct is where you small-talk, but you do it coz that’s how social etiquette works.

          - Indirect is where you go out of your way to hide your intentions, and then say and do things for the sake of triggering responses.

          Like if you’re at a cousin’s birthday party, and you see a chick you can go introduce yourself and small-talk for a few mins, and it’s not pussybegging or indirect.

          It’s more “slow-direct”… I don’t know if that makes sense? Like you are more gradual with the interest showing out of etiquette… Small talk a few mins, touch her a little, throw in some hint, get in a little closer, stare into her eyes a bit longer, kiss her, etc… You can be non-verbally direct without ever expressing verbal interest.

        • What the fruit guy did was pussybegging 1.0, the old school way to pussybeg. PUAs have developed a beast called pussybegging 2.0. By using a straw man and equating anti-game with pussybegging 1.0, he frames it as if a man’s only choices in life are between two forms of pussybegging. And when it’s put to a man like that, of course pussybegging 2.0 will seem like the best choice.

          YEP! False dichotomies have always been a pillar-stone of maintaining the game cult. Everything is put in black and white terms in order to mentally trap people into a false forced choice. 

          this also relates to the direct/indirect convo I initiated in the previous comment

          “Direct game” and “indirect game” are also a false choice.

          Gamers invented the distinction, so that they say shit like “oh so you’ll run up to a chick in church and ask her to fuck?!?!?”

          Grizzly, when you say something like “or don’t approach her at all if the time and place isn’t right for being direct. “ —> you fall into their false dichotomy.

          There’s no need to not to talk to a chick, just coz the place isn’t open to direct lol…

          If anything, it shouldn’t be called direct and indirect…

          It should be called

          - hiding your intentions
          Vs
          - not hiding your intentions

          Gamers are the one who created the false notion that not doing indirect means you either are verbally blunt or don’t approach at all.

          There are many gradations of “not hiding interest”… Doing small talk is not indirect, if you’re non-verbally escalating… Or flirting with your eyes and body.

          In other words, you can approach anywhere and anywhere and still be an anti-gamer. You shouldn’t avoid locations just because you can’t be verbally blunt in them.

          All that the location changes is how much social etiquette you need to use. You can use a ton of social etiquette, never verbally spell out interest and still not be hiding intentions…

          See this:

          http://aaronsleazy.blogspot.com/2012/02/why-indirect-game-is-popular-and-why.html?showComment=1328687891615&m=0#c237516015692077108

      • Technically Roissy is correct with the example… If the guy really meant that fruit comment then that is anti-game… He just said whatever he felt like saying… And if the chick walks off, who gives a shit?

        • In other words that’s not a straw man necessarily…

          - If the guy made that fruit comment in order to get a response from that chick, then he was practicing game.

          - If he made the fruit comment not giving a fuck about her response, he was practicing anti-game

          By definition “game” is focusing on what to do and say in order to get a desired response…

          Anytime you’re not doing that, you’re practicing anti-game…

    • And here I thought Chateau was too busy having orgies with Victoria Secret models to post about a bunch of Omegas/Epsilons/Chis/Mus on the internet on some site.

      Wasn’t one of the marks of an alpha ignoring criticism?

      In other words:

      u mad chateau?

  10. There are a lot, and I mean a LOT, of MRAs who believe this man. I have encountered a few (one was a user named TomLeykis1 – I will not be shameful and hide his name) CTs who think that America is a police state. Note their selfishness and their ‘MURKAN PRIDE. I have also noticed others favouriting Alex Jones videos, especially the ones on the “kidnapping children” escapade.

    It’s like AGW skepticism – it gets blinded by paranoid CTs who think it’s a socialist conspiracy. Like feminism, it doesn’t hold the thing that is responsible. In AGW’s case it’s bad science, and in this case it’s women.

    Yes, I am a climate skeptic, and no I am not a “denier”. I know climate changes. Just wanted to shout that out, though it might be irrevalent.

  11. Pingback: Where Is Paul Elam On Conspiracy Theory Now? | The Black Pill

  12. There’s a lot of things going on in America that worry me, like airport scanners that can see through people’s clothes and police talking about using drones to spy on law-abiding people. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to start believing in a couple of shadowy figures enacting a long, complicated plan to manipulate society by treating it like their own chessboard. There’s nothing secretive or conspiratorial about those airport scanners or the security clowns who abuse them.

  13. There’s actually reseach that shows that conspiracy theory leads to less action when it comes to civil liberties issues. If you think that everything is run by a conspiracy, then protesting airport scanners or working through the political process is a waste of time. Conspiracy theory is exactly the wrong way to go about dealing with these issues. Instead real political action is what is needed. That has had a successful track record of dealing with civil liberties issues whereas conspiracy theory has accomplished nothing.

  14. I can believe it. It seems like the point of conspiracies is just to identify more conspiracies to justify feeling a lack of control in one’s life.

  15. to identify more conspiracies to justify feeling a lack of control in one’s life.

    This is what I meant. Great observation…

    It’s like people who cant take control of eating disorders buy into conspiracies about the food industry.

    People who can’t take control over their finances buy into economic conspiracies.

    People who can’t take control over their social life, take up the conspiracy known as game.

    And if you’re a roissyite, you’re a failure at all three, hence adopt conspiracies on all three.

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