The SPLC Has Managed To Exploit The Greatest Weakness Of The MRM

All of you have heard about how the Southern Poverty Law Center is now tracking the so called manosphere.  Many people in the so called manosphere are patting themselves on the back and thinking that it’s great publicity.  They’re wrong because the SPLC has managed (likely by accident) to exploit the greatest weakness of the MRM,the lack of rational, politically astute leadership.

The “leaders” of the MRM like Paul Elam have completely failed to distance themselves from all the kooks that inhabit the so called manosphere.  (Even in the case of game where Paul Elam, for example, took a strong stand against it, he ended up giving it legitimacy by treating it as a valid alternate point of view by debating it in the Elam-Frost debates.  This is another example of the lack of political astuteness of the MRM “leadership”.)  While I’m sure the SPLC would have tried to smear the MRM with white supremacists, conspiracy theorists, and other kooks, the fact is that the SPLC was handed what they wanted on a silver platter.  With all of the kooks inhabiting the manosphere, it was easy for the SPLC to smear anti-feminism with those kooks.

A person who reads what the SPLC says about the so called manosphere might not believe it so they would check things out for themselves.  What they would find by going to AVfM, for example, is kook after kook from anti-semitism to medical conspiracy theories to conspiracy theories about the CIA and the Rockefellers orchestrating feminism to conspiracy theories about dead guys to lies about currency, economics, and the Federal Reserve.  The problem isn’t just a few kooks commenting.  The comments at AVfM are filled with kooks, and the insanity is not limited to the comments.  The last three links are from John the Other, AVfM’s managing editor.  The kooks are just in the comments.  They’re at the top leading AVfM.  Plus, AVfM still links to InMalaFide (one of the sites listed by the SPLC) and Hawaiian Fat Blob.  (Since it would take all of five seconds to remove those links, there is no excuse to keep links to those kooks around.)  Anyone who goes to AVfM as a result of the SPLC, even if they’re sympathetic to mens rights, will conclude that the SPLC is right about AVfM because of the amount of kooks there.  If Paul Elam was more politically astute, he would be in a much stronger position to defend against the SPLC’s accusations.  Instead he is alienating potential allies who would be interested in mens rights but don’t want to be involved with kooks.

The problem is larger than just AVfM.  Even rational anti-feminist blogs and organizations like the False Rape Society and SAVE are being tarnished with the same brush because the MRM “leadership” has failed to deal with the kooks due to their lack of political astuteness.

Even if a potentially ally gets past the kooks, the fact that the so called manosphere is now forever connected to game crap.  One of the blogs that the SPLC listed was Roosh.  Roosh is gamer who has said that MRAs are just losers who can’t get laid and has nothing to do with mens rights whatsoever.  (It can be argued that the kooks have more to do with mens rights than he does.)  A potentially ally who comes to the MRM via the SPLC might conclude that while the SPLC is full of shit, that the MRM isn’t about mens rights but stupid crap about getting laid.  Just like with the failure to deal with the kooks, this is another example of the MRM “leadership” failing to be politically astute.  It’s the Misandrist Dating Advice Distraction happening again.

If the MRM “leadership” had been politically astute, they could have turned what the SPLC did into a victory.  Instead it’s another failure that delays the progress of anti-feminism.

123 responses to “The SPLC Has Managed To Exploit The Greatest Weakness Of The MRM

  1. This splc business is no victory for those in the manosphere for the reasons you have outlined. And it was quite good timing that at the same time as we, of a more rational slant were increasingly being marginalized, and mocked by the other man sphere people. this happened.

    For those of us on the margins, not part of their sphere, this is a good thing. As we stayed on the margins, we must ensure that where we comment, it is a rational, fact based method. Tom leykis for instance has very little to fear from the splc as what he discusses is within the mainstream and makes intuitive sense. It is great timing that leykis is returning in less than 30 days. Avfm failed in its primary purpose, to discuss the treatment of men in society, game blogs have done the same.

    What we need to do, is sever our arguments from those of the game/alt sphere now lumped together. We have to be absolutely clear that there fight is not ours, and keep our message focused, separate, and above All, rational. Let those blogs dig in and be the focus of attacks, while a better, more realistic argument is made here, and elsewhere.

    Better to be aligned with leykis than roosh, better fathers for justice than roissy. We just have to make sure we are first at the gate when the argument is made, and not those who are dug in.

  2. Are you losing supporters that would otherwise have supported you? The people who were always going to be anti-MRM (in simpler terms: the movement’s political enemies) are of no interest. What matters is the broader community. What matters most is young men and even young women – the people who will be running the world in 40 years time.

    • I’m not concerned about the movement’s actual political enemies. There is no convincing them. Who I am concerned about are the men who are or would be sympathetic to mens rights/anti-feminism who get scared off because they think the MRM is about game BS, the paleo diet, conspiracy theory, anti-semitism, white supremacism, etc. Those are the supporters we are losing.

      Long term it may not matter, but I am tired of delays which this sort of thing causes.

  3. http://glpiggy.net/2012/03/11/the-southern-poverty-law-center-is-creepy/

    ‘Game and seduction try to cure men of “one-itis”, and “one-itis” is the most common cause of violence against women. Feminists don’t like Game, though, and they aren’t overjoyed by this very positive byproduct of Game because men who turn against “one-itis” aren’t doing it for what feminists would consider the right reasons. Feminists want men to not harm women because they so value women; gamers want men to not harm women because they so value themselves.’

    Yep, “one-itis,” the primary reason for violence against women (WTF), is solved by game! You read that right.

    I take this as GLP trying to reconcile with women on some level, especially since he’s in a relationship now. This follows his general trend of softening to a more “female-friendly” tone, while remaining a game evangelist. He has also toned down the racism a lot (removed the BBB section on his blog, told Ryu to take a hike, etc.) in what seems to be a drive to appear more legitimate.

    I don’t mind the toned down racism (honestly, it never had its place in this “sphere” to begin with, and is a serious distraction for the MRM) but it’s clear that GLP’s overall direction is being dominated by pussy, which the guy is obviously addicted to. The observance of “game” principles is doing the exact opposite of what he’s claiming, if it’s doing anything at all.

    • Talking to a bunch of other women instead of clinging onto one girl is not game.

      It is merely common sense.

      And if you want to be more successful with women than it is as simple as improving your appearance nothing more.

      I really wish PUA gurus would stop saying the lie that looks don’t matter because it fucking does.

      • Plenty of PUAs end up with one-itis anyway. Maybe not with the first girl who ever gives them pussy, but a lot of them still eventually do. It happened to several of them in the actual book The Game even.

        • How many times does it need to be said that acting normal is more effective than PUA clown routines?

          I already learned this the hard way before even knowing what PUA is.

        • Another problem with Pua is that it hypes itself up as the social skills needed to go get laid.

          I got excellent social skills in real life but these skills won’t get me laid unless the girl already finds me attractive to begin with.

          Pua would tell me that i need more skills and kiss her ass more.

        • Or put another way, skills matter but they won’t work the miracles that PUAs swear they will. The manosphere guys are the same with the power of IQ. They swear it will work some major life miracles, or at least it would work major life miracles for them if it wasn’t for the government, the darkies, the kikes, the bitches, the betas, the alphas, the rockerfellers, the socialists, the capitalists, the religious, the athiests, the anti-gamers, the liberals, the traditional conservatives, the carb lovers, and justin bieber all conspiring to keep them down. Because their high IQs are just that threatening. So that’s why they need game to level the playing field. To them game doesn’t just have magical powers for getting them laid, it has magical powers for correcting society itself!

          I wonder how many of them ever even got their IQs tested, or if they just assume they have high IQs by virtue of being white and male. Because based on the type of magical thinking the regularly use I really doubt they are as genius as they assume themselves to be.

    • The BBB posts were the only ones worth reading on his blog, and that’s only because you don’t have to be a WN to find black underclass misbehavior entertaining. Also, if you can’t call out the doublespeak of professional black apologists, how can you claim to oppose PC?

      Hilarious that Chuck Ross, Olive Garden waiter and pedestrian blogger with few interests beyond pussy and abolishing the minimum wage, strives for “legitimacy.”

      Celine and HST would be so proud of these brave truth tellers, eh?

  4. The SPLC did use the greatest weakness of the MRM, but now how you mean it.

    Like republicans and conservatives in general, the MRM always wishes to look and act respectable. The SPLC itself is the tool of the radical left.

    The feminisms and leftists do not damn their extremists. Indeed, the lifeblood of both is the extremity of their leadership. The MRM has responded with attempts at clearing its membership of anyone not agreeing with the new, sterile messege. That is at least half the strength of your membership.

    These “principled men” of the MRM bend over backward to accomodate the enemy. They’ll betray their own to do it. But I welcome this. The racist neonazi anti-semites have dealt with the SPLC and worse for over 40 years. We need to see who actually knows what they are doing in the MRM. So far, all fail.

    • The feminisms and leftists do not damn their extremists. Indeed, the lifeblood of both is the extremity of their leadership. The MRM has responded with attempts at clearing its membership of anyone not agreeing with the new, sterile messege. That is at least half the strength of your membership.

      You are not “our” extremists. You and the rest of the kooks have nothing to do with mens rights. You are just here in a pathetic attempt to coopt the MRM because you white supremacists are failures at everything.

      It’s very telling that you think so little of the MRM yet you won’t go away. You need us, but we don’t need you.

  5. Good Lord, Black Pill. Do you really believe the MRM is actually a tangible thing?

    It is not.

    The MRM is a just a term used to describe the changing tide. That is all. It has no leader, no hub, no cohesive body, no rules, no fear, no tangible purpose other than to oppose rampant feminism. If it could be defined as anything at all, it would be spunk. You are part of it.

    I’ve read a lot of your stuff here – it’s pretty good work, but seriously, you have completely misunderstood the MRM. Articles like this do your obvious intelligence no justice.

    • The MRM is tangible in the sense that it’s an unorganized group of people. It’s not as widespread as you make it out to be since most people have never heard of the MRM. There are a lot more men who are sympathetic to MRM ideas, but they are not part of the MRM.

      • I’m gonna agree with Jacob Ian Stalk.

        There is no such thing as the “MRM”, and no such thing as an “MRA”. You should gradually phase those terms out of your vocabulary, and introduce alternative terms into the discourse.

        Your post, and most of the comments here, are missing the proverbial broad side of the barn.

        But I DO agree with the need for politically astute leadership. And also, for rhetorical discipline. For ‘rhetorical discipline’, see HERE:

        http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/the-practice-of-rhetorical-discipline/

        As for conspiracy theories and theorists, there is nothing wrong with these per se. SOME of them are kookish, and others are not. Most of them have a grain of truth, or even some very large chunks. The problem is, that they have no place in the non-feminist revolution, and shouldn’t be talked about in that context — or at least not talked about much. They are contrary to message discipline (which is the 4th point of rhetorical discipline).

        PUAs and all their kin should take a very fast hike. I don’t want them around. They are bloodsuckers. In fact, you yourself talk about them way too much, even though it is to say that you don’t like them. But you shouldn’t talk about them for ANY reason. Let your mind be focused on other things.

        There is nothing wrong with “linking to” certain people, so long as you put an appropriate disclaimer above the list, such as I have done on my blog.

        Speaking of my blog (the Counter-Feminist), you will find an e-mail link there. You are welcome to click on that link. . . .any old time. In fact, please do.

        Here is one more item (by me) which pertains to all of this — especially the part about the Moral Perfection Fallacy:

        http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/two-feminist-fallacies/

        • There is no such thing as the “MRM”, and no such thing as an “MRA”. You should gradually phase those terms out of your vocabulary, and introduce alternative terms into the discourse.

          What would you suggest? I don’t have the time to write 50 page dissertations every time I write a new post or comment just to avoid using common terms.

          As for conspiracy theories and theorists, there is nothing wrong with these per se. SOME of them are kookish, and others are not. Most of them have a grain of truth, or even some very large chunks.

          There is quite a bit wrong with conspiracy theory. At its heart conspiracy theory is just a combination of a scam to sell books and DVDs to gullible people and a way for weak minded losers to pretend they’re better than everyone else.

          The problem is, that they have no place in the non-feminist revolution, and shouldn’t be talked about in that context — or at least not talked about much. They are contrary to message discipline (which is the 4th point of rhetorical discipline).

          Since you understand this, why do you spend time arguing with me about it, instead of actually doing something to get rid of the kooks? There are very few anti-feminist blogs that I can go to without constantly being acosted by some irrevelant kook crap. AVfM is bad in this regard which isn’t a surprise since the guy that runs it, John the Other, is a kook who can’t stop talking about irrelevant kook crap.

          There is nothing wrong with “linking to” certain people, so long as you put an appropriate disclaimer above the list, such as I have done on my blog.

          Most anti-feminist blogs including AVfM do not have any such disclaimer. Using AVfM as an example, its blogroll consists of five blogs at least two of which (Inmalafide and Hawaiian Fat Blob) are all about racism, conspiracy theory, and other kook crap.

          However, it’s rare that links are the only problem. Usually, it’s just one factor that is present with many other factors. For example, AVfM’s problems don’t end with its blogroll or even its comments that attract kooks. A big source of the the problem of anti-feminism being flooded with kook crap that has no place in anti-feminism is its managing editor, John the Other.

          If you think I’m annoying about this subject, it’s nothing compared to the enemies of anti-feminism. Anyone who wants to discredit AVfM or most other anti-feminist blogs only has to link to some of racist and conspiracy theory posts by AUTHORS of those blogs.

          Before you call this the moral perfection fallacy again, that isn’t what this is about. I just want an anti-feminist movement that isn’t controlled by kooks. I want an anti-feminist movement that gets shit done. That’s a reasonable thing to want.

        • Also, you are quite correct that there is a “conspiracy industry” which peddles conspiracy theories as a cheezy scam. In fact, the Big Boys who run the actual conspiracies in this world love to see such things happening, and actually ENCOURAGE it. (Well, that is exactly what I would do if I were one of those Big Boys!)

          They encourage this because it creates smokescreens, and keeps people from prioritizing their energy in a way that would help them reclaim the spiritual center of their lives.

          Okay, so conspiracy theorists tend to be wingnuts. But that does not negate the fact that human beings are conspiratorial animals who have been up to their necks in conspiracies of one form or another ever since history began.

          For example, in all intellectual honesty I do not doubt that the Rockefellers (to cite a classic example) are up to some stinky business.

          Even if I don’t always know precisely what that business is.

          But see, the thing is that I don’t go on and on about such things, because my political focus lies elsewhere. In fact, I talk about such things very little. To my thinking, it is not mission critical to engage such issues.

          So I think that you and I could agree that different baggage belongs on different wagons. Ergo, the conspiracy theorists should haul their own damn baggage on their own damn wagon. And follow their own damn road to wherever they are going.

          It all comes down to message discipline.

        • For example, in all intellectual honesty I do not doubt that the Rockefellers (to cite a classic example) are up to some stinky business.

          Even if I don’t always know precisely what that business is.

          As a rational, evidence based thinker, I have to object to this idea. It’s so vague to be useless at providing any real information. More importantly, this argument and every other arugment to support conspiracy theory theory in general has been used pratically verbatim against me when I was the victim of false sexual harassment accusations. That’s pretty telling. The same arguments have been used against groups of men and men in general by feminists. I have heard feminists say that men must be up to some stinky business even if they don’t know what that business is. We object to false accusations when it comes to rape, sexual harassment, abuse, etc. so why should we be inconsistent and not apply the same standard to the Rockefellers? I don’t want false accusations to happen to anyone.

          A lot of conspiracy theories originiated with feminists, so why trust them?

          If you’re going to start going down the road of what group is up to “stinky business”, then the first group to consider is not the Rockefellers but conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists have a psychological profile that makes them more likely to want to be part of conspiracies than anyone else. I have been going to skeptic forums to better understand conspiracy theorists, and from them I have discovered there is a lot of evidence that many conspiracy theorists don’t believe in their own conspiracy theories either entirely or in part. This means they are likely to have an alternate political agenda that is no good for anti-feminism.

          But see, the thing is that I don’t go on and on about such things, because my political focus lies elsewhere. In fact, I talk about such things very little. To my thinking, it is not mission critical to engage such issues.

          You may wish to explain this to Paul Elam since he seems to think that promoting conspiracy theory and white supremacism is of utmost importance.

          So I think that you and I could agree that different baggage belongs on different wagons. Ergo, the conspiracy theorists should haul their own damn baggage on their own damn wagon. And follow their own damn road to wherever they are going.

          Conspiracy theorists don’t do this. I have seen lots of blogs and forums on subjects ranging from video games to aviation get invaded by conspiracy theorists. Eventually, all the sane people at these blogs and forums get tired of dealing with conspiracy theorist wackjobs and leave turing those blogs and forums into another haven for conspiracy thoery. The same process is in play in the anti-feminist space where sane men are getting driven out for conspiracy theorists (and racists, white supremacists, etc.). Anti-feminism is too important to let the conspiracy theorists take over so a stand needs to be made here.

    • And look at how Bardamu describes them as “valuable agents of opposition to the system”. Here is proof that Bardamu doesn’t care about mens rights. He’s just an angry little man who couldn’t hack an easy state government job so he just wants to destroy everything.

      • Absolutely. I always found it hilarious that the two most prominent PUA bloggers, Ferd and Roissy, are/were both useless .gov parasites, every bit as non-productive as the HR drones, ed. school losers, and social work majors that they complain about.

    • Comment on any AVfM story so I can see what your email is. Just write “test comment that alek asked me to make, please leave it up until he sees it, thanks”.

      I’ll email you a username/pass.

      • Hi Alek,
        I’ve noticed that your site is password protected now. I visit your site daily and would really lie to continue reading your site, can you help me out?

      • Hi Alek. I left a test comment on the ‘Mississippi Students Walk a Mile in her Shoes’ thread.

        Cheers
        Ricardo.

        • @FakeGrizzly

          Lol… WordPress ties avatars to email adresses. This is why your avatar is different that the original grizzly’s.

        • Lol, no, it’s the original Grizzly. I started commenting under a real email address instead of the invented one I was previously using. I’m commenting now under my old invented email address now to pull up my old avatar and prove it.

  6. I’,m not gonna let
    the sodomite kike
    control the level of my discourse, and I suggest you do the same.

    This ploy is only successful as the rad-fems have allied with LEO and the courts as a moneymaking indsustry,by sucking the lifeblood out of what used to be functional nuclear family’s.
    We need increased opposition,not less.

    I’m not a fan of WN, either,but if this comes to blows any allies we can get will do.

    Make no mistake:the rad-fems do want to keep pushing until
    the single young man has nowhere to go except prison.

    Revolutions have been made out of less.

    • I’m not a fan of WN, either,but if this comes to blows any allies we can get will do.

      All these delusional manosphere fucks can’t even leave their house and approach women without mentally masturbating for months on end online. You really think they’re bringing any type of physical war against “the establishment?” lol

      • Grizzly: Please tell me, what is a “delusional manosphere fuck”?

        Is there such a thing as a NON-delusional manosphere fuck?

        And what, precisely, are YOU?

        Are you a friend of feminism, or an enemy of it?

        Hoist your colors, sir!

        • When I discuss “delusional manosphere fucks” I mean the paleo-game-racism cult members thinking there’s gonna be some physical race and carb war in the streets where blacks, liberals, and bakeries are going to be taking up arms and mating with white women, smuggling in illegal aliens, and force feeding them bread while cockblocking their game.

          I don’t mean more rational pro-male anti-feminist groups.

    • I’m not a fan of WN, either,but if this comes to blows any allies we can get will do.

      White supremacists aren’t allies of the MRM. They just hang around in some desperate hope that they can coopt the MRM.

      • Once again, there IS NO MRM.

        And why?

        Because there are any friggin’ number of present or potential MRMs — plural!

        And THAT is why there IS NO MRM.

        And our task now, is to educate the general public about this.

        If you define “MRM” as a singular, existing thing — then you have created a singular, existing target.

        Do you follow me?

        But if you employ a pluralistic model, then you create so many targets that the other side will use up most of their ammunition to very little effect.

        Do you follow me?

        • Fidel, I understand you, but I’m trying to communicate about the topic of this post. I don’t have time to deal with semantics right now.

          Can you and Paul leave the semantic arguments alone right now so we can discuss the subject of this post?

  7. The problem isn’t with the MRM (if there even is such a thing) leadership. There really is no leadership, only voices. The problem lies in the basic dishonesty of feminists like those involved at SPLC. First, as you point out, they lump together a bunch of unrelated or only loosely related sites and authors. Next they accuse them of misogeny and site a handful of statements they consider misogenistic, many taken out of context. A couple of the mentioned sites may even be misogenist so lumping them all together under one umbrella helps to condemn those that don’t. In most cases, they failed to even cite an example of the so-called “misogeny.” In criticizing FRS for example, the best SPLC could do was to accuse them of “attcking” a female woman for making what on its face appears to be a misandric statement. How is that misogeny? It isn’t. another example would be the criticism of SAVE. They misrepresent SAVE’s position on VAWA to mean “rolling back” DV services (SAVE actually advocates a more inclusive, non-gendered approach to service provision), then misuse statistics to make it sound as though SAVE blames women for being abused.

    This type of blatant dishonesty and misrepresentation has nothing to do with the “kooks” (as you call them) within the MRM or any perceived lack of leadership. It is the same thing feminists have been doing since the idea of feminism first started. Susan Brownmiller made up the canard that only 2% of rape allegations are false and lied about her source. In a book released in the early 70’s another feminist author fantasized about a pre-historic matriarchal civilization that worshipped a goddess and passed it off as scientific fact. Then, of course there was the Super Bowl Hoax and other such drivel spouted by feminists as though it were true. The SPLC is simply the latest to hop on the bandwagon of feminist drivel in its attacks on men’s rights and those who advocate for them.

    TDOM

    • This type of blatant dishonesty and misrepresentation has nothing to do with the “kooks” (as you call them)

      It has everything to do with the kooks. Yes, the SLPC will lie about the MRM, but why make it easy for the SPLC by making their lies true? The so called manosphere is awash in all different types of kooks from conspiracy theorists to gamers to white supremacists to paleo dieters. AVfM, for example, has had not just comments from kooks but plenty of posts from these kooks because kooks like John the Other are in charge. (I have documented examples of this over and over.) If you look at AVfM’s blogrool there are five blogs and two of them (Inmalafide and Hawaiian Fat Blob) are kooks. An outside observer would conclude from all of this that AVfM is a bunch of nutjobs. All the SPLC has to do is link to this stuff.

      All of this crap is politically useless for the MRM and gives ammo to the enemies of the MRM. Rather than deal with the problem, you attack me for pointing out the problem. It’s no suprise that the online MRM is currently going nowhere.

      • “the online MRM is currently going nowhere.”

        I disagree. In fact, the non-feminist revolution is growing its numbers steadily.

        As for the MRM, what did I tell you earlier?

        There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM. There is no such thing as the MRM.

        Please do not propagate that meme, and that brand. Phase it out of your vocabulary. Please. . . .

        • Have to agree with this statement. Things take time. This will be a long war. But the fact that something like flase rape even gets dicsussed now (on occassion) by the media is an advancement. Plus the Duke and Hoffsra students managed to free themslves from false imprisonment. If this happend in the 1990’s, they would all probably be in jail. AND, some states in the US have manged to overturn the feminist paternity fraud industry ( I believe the number is about 8 or 9 states).
          Things take time. U need perseverance.

  8. Here’s my answer to all of this…

    http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2012/02/looking-in-new-directions-quick-outline.html

    http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2012/02/feminism-invented-mra-movement.html

    http://counterfem.blogspot.com/2012/03/what-is-this-thing-called-counter.html

    This is what I’m trying to do, and completely restructure according to it. I’ve been restructuring in the background for about a month, but I realized I can’t do it in real time while my tumblog is public. I plan on commencing video activism within 2012-2013… My strategy is twofold…

    1) I’m no longer an “MRA” and will try to build an online persona which is known as “the destroyer of bullshit, lies, scams and deception”… Mostly ripping kooks from all areas to shreds…

    2) Also I will make it clear that I am a person who practices what he preaches and actually lives a lifestyle with the results the kooks wish they has (ripped, popular, successful etc ).

    3)This is why video is an important part of the strategy… Because kooks are afraid of doing video and hide behind the written word. I will keep challenging them and calling them out to voice their kooky crap on camera… “unless you show your face on camera, you are making shit up behind a keyboard”

    4) in real terms this means you will see one video where I am humiliating paleotards and ripping them to shreds, followed by a video of me living large and giving lifestyle tips, followed by a video on bodybuilding tips, followed by me ripping apart some stupid mainstream article on shaming men, followed by a video of me ripping apart Roissy-ites, followed by me humiliating and mocking a stupid feminazi theory…

    Well rounded individuals who have demonstrable success, confidence and are recognized as wise in general have a lot more impact when they speak out against feminism. A guy who has a blog where all he does is rants against feminism? Not so much.

  9. Every political organization has kooks. Deal with it. And sex is the core of most men’s existence. Game makes Men’s Right more viable and mainstream.

    • And sex is the core of most men’s existence. Game makes Men’s Right more viable and mainstream.

      You do realize that

      A) most men on this planet are getting laid just fine
      B) game is considered kooky and an object of ridicule among mainstream men?

      • Don’t bother trying to explain these facts to him. Most guys in the so called manosphere are so isolated from reality that they have no idea how 99.999% of the population thinks or acts.

      • Here are two studies that displace your game-denying premise that most men do not seek a better sexual existence. Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?

        http://english.pravda.ru/society/sex/31-03-2011/117406-russian_men_sex_life-0/

        http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/sex-and-the-long-term-relationship/

        Maybe you are trying to say that more men are satisfied with their sex life than some gamers purport. You may also be correct in stating that sex is not as important as men make it to be or that they have enough–no need for more, but you sound like the prudish grandma slapping away the cookies.

        Any Men’s Rights advocate is concerned with what makes men happy, why, how to get it, how feminism prevents it and how to fight feminism on these specific grounds.

        I think you have penis envy for gamers; or at least you inadvertently demonstrate the behaviors and attitudes that can be construed as evidence for such.

        Also you have to password protect your website now. Anyone who is unable to defend his statements from criticism is either intellectually unable, unconvincing, or psychologically fragile.

        • Here are two studies that displace your game-denying premise that most men do not seek a better sexual existence.

          Game has as much to do with sex as five year old boys playing cops and robbers has to do with actual police work.

          Any Men’s Rights advocate is concerned with what makes men happy

          That is not what mens rights is about. It’s not about something so vague.

          I think you have penis envy for gamers

          Why would he? He gets laid more than gamers, especially Roissyite gamers, do. Even I get laid more than gamers do.

        • Here are two studies that displace your game-denying premise that most men do not seek a better sexual existence. Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?

          http://english.pravda.ru/society/sex/31-03-2011/117406-russian_men_sex_life-0/

          http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/sex-and-the-long-term-relationship/

          Maybe you are trying to say that more men are satisfied with their sex life than some gamers purport.

          I said that most non-gamers *get laid* just fine. In the sense that most men are sexually literate and know how to approach, get a date, physically escalate etc.

          The game industry teaches guys how to get laid, not “how to increase sexual frequency in marriages”. All 100% of the mainstream game industry teaches guys how to get laid… basic sexual skills that men overcome by the time they’re 21. A full 99+% of game seminars, products or books are about the act of approaching, the first 5 minutes of an interaction.

          Any Men’s Rights advocate is concerned with what makes men happy, why, how to get it

          You do realize THAT IS WHY I am fighting against game infection?

          I have never seen a cult destroy that many men’s lives and create that much bitterness and depression in that many men.

          I have been involved with the community over 10 years. I have personally met thousands of gamers. I have personally followed the growth of hundreds more closely. The vast majority of men were left worse off by game.

          I think you have penis envy for gamers; or at least you inadvertently demonstrate the behaviors and attitudes that can be construed as evidence for such.

          Yes, I am jealous of the fact that whenever I go out to hang out with the local gamers they call me “alek the natural”.

          Of my top 10 friends every single one (except one) is an ex-gamer. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY FRIENDS IS AN EX-GAMER. EVERY PERSON I RESPECT, ADMIRE AND LIKE, I MET IN THE GAME COMMUNITY. DO YOU GET THIS?

          Do you not understand I know more about this cult than you will by 2020? I’ve been in it since it’s founding and have met a lot of the most prominent gurus, and even owned a company in it.

          Go to a PUA/game conference, and you will see the largest gathering of adult virgins outside of comic-con.

  10. Every political organization has kooks. Deal with it. And sex is the core of most men’s existence. Game makes Men’s Rights more viable and mainstream.

  11. Racism sells better than Men’s Rights at this point. It’s more manly and primal at its core in fact. You take sex and racism out of Men’s Rights and you have nothing left but a bunch of wimps and married men who are passively part of the feminist problem.

    • You take sex and racism out of Men’s Rights and you have nothing left but a bunch of wimps and married men who are passively part of the feminist problem.

      You must just be trolling. You can’t really be that stupid.

      MEN’S RIGHTS is a bigger part of the feminist problem than RACISM and GAME? You are seriously stuck on stupid if you believe that. Most racists just put white women on a pedestal instead of treating them like the entitled overgrown children they’ve become, still worried about protecting their purity, obsessing over proving they’re somehow superior to women of other races, and spending more time bashing and competing with men of other races for white women’s approval. They are more pro-white woman than pro-male. Meanwhile white women have done more to push the cause of feminism than any other race of women on earth.

      Gamers on the other hand put ALL women on a pedestal.

      • Just wanna add, I’m not even one of those guys who thinks Men’s Right is perfect or that it doesn’t have the answers. But to say that it is part of the feminist problem more than game and racism is the height of retardation. These people truly are cult members, with no level of rational thought left.

      • Not trolling; just pointing out, in an indirect way, how simplistic your statement is that racists are all extreme and have no place in Men’s Rights advocacy. Race and Sex are two important components of any man’s life. If religion is the opiate of the masses, then race is the cocaine and sex the marijuana. Not all so-called “racists” are white supremacist. You must be using an outdated definition of racist. You are now called a racist simply for not agreeing with Obama. You are also a racist if you point out any advantage of one race over another or see problems with affirmative action and the forced acceptance of everything not in line with your racial preferences. Those advantages and differences do exist. Not everything a racist states has no merit. And there is a racial component to every social relationship.

    • If you think MRAs are part of the feminism, then why are you here? Why don’t you racists and kooks go away? Why would you want to be associated with a bunch of wimps? Your real motives of trying to coopt the MRM is so fucking obvious so don’t try to pretend otherwise.

        • You are the local god around here. Why not simply use the good ol’ banhammer of Thor?

          Because that’s not the point. I’m trying to draw out from them the reason why white supremacists and conspiracy theorists come to mens rights blogs. I know the answer which is that they are trying to coopt anti-feminism for their own purposes, but I want to draw out the truth from them.

      • I never stated that MRAs are part of the problem but that minus two important components they tend to indirectly contribute to it. I’m not a kook advocate, but I don’t see a problem with addressing some of the problems they accurately point out. Making hay out of kooks is just a waste of time in other words.

        BTW, I learned about Men’s Rights from Pook who was a gamer. The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

        • The best way to deal with a kook is to make fun of him, not to take him so seriously you devote hours of your time trying to tear his insanity apart.

        • BTW, I learned about Men’s Rights from Pook who was a gamer. The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

          Feminists from Amanda Marcotte to Clarisse Thorn are making alliances with PUAs. That is not the enemy of my enemy.

        • BTW, I learned about Men’s Rights from Pook who was a gamer. The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

          Pook is a very admirable fella who is NOT a gamer. He has never talked about “game” or “gaming women” or “having game”. There’s a large difference between a mature man like pook, and a puatard.

          (I’m sorry to break it to you, not everyone that talks about getting women is a PUA. That’s like saying everyone who discusses politics is a democrat).

          SoSuave (the original home of Pook) is a place that mocks puas as game almost as much as we do. They accept everyone so you will see PUAs posting, but it’s a more mature well-rounded community that mostly includes mature tips on flirting. Most men on there are quite a bit more mature than gamers.

          You do realize that Pook is the very first thing I ever read, back 10-11 years ago? I used to spend hours a day with sosuave, pook, DJBC etc etc. Ahh good memories.

    • “Racism sells better than Men’s Rights at this point.”

      OW, I agree that it sells better among people who are in the market for racism in the first place.

      So what is your point?

        • Now more than ever, it is imperative for the more politically-minded segments of the non-feminist revolution to distance themselves from PUAs, woman-centric males, and people who make the discourse revolve around “feelings”, “relationships”, and the like.

          If you attack feminism on THOSE grounds, then you are mud-wrestling with a pig. And you should not be “wrestling” with that pig in any way at all, let alone doing so in the mud.

          If we’re gonna have a revolution, then we need to think like revolutionaries.

          We need to seize control of the entire narrative FROM THE OUTSIDE.

          Policy Wonks Rule!

  12. “A) most men on this planet are getting laid just fine
    B) game is considered kooky and an object of ridicule among mainstream men?
    Reply

    *
    The Black Pill says:
    March 13, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    Don’t bother trying to explain these facts to him. Most guys in the so called manosphere are so isolated from reality that they have no idea how 99.999% of the population thinks or acts.”

    Wow brother, you just defended game.

    I agree my last post was a bit “kooky”that was deliberate,and a rise to your bait.

    First they came for the kooks, then they came for the virgins,when they came for me,there was no one left to defend me.
    You see the pattern?

    There are no leaders to sue endlessly,there is only shutting down of free speech.
    That does tend to bring out the extremist in any freedom loving individual.
    Feminism is a hate movement,backed by an increasing police state power.

    Money+power,plain and simple.
    Zero sum game.

    • This is an example of how you are isolated from reality. The government or whoever you think is in charge is not going after kooks. Alex Jones and David Icke can go wherever they want and say whatever they want without any trouble as much as anyone else can. There’s no government initiative to round up kooks. Kooks are free to do what they want including sell books and DVDs.

      If anything kooks have more freedom from the government than other groups. Commercials for psychics have to include disclaimers that their so called “service” is for entertainment purposes only because otherwise they would be in violation of various anti-fraud and truth in advertising laws. Kook books and DVDs have the same problem yet they don’t include similar disclaimers and don’t worry about being prosecuted for breaking those laws. Kooks have it extremely good.

  13. A lot being written recently about the MRM. Too bad this article is as or more obtuse as what the mainstream is being fed by Huffpo and SPLC.

    Yes, it is that bad.

    If you want to critique the problems of the MRM, you have to at least first understand what it is, and you clearly don’t. There are no leaders, no organizational structure, no one to align with from whom to distance yourself.

    There is no leadership because there is no following. And there is no following because men are not wired to follow leaders on male-centric issues and never have been. In fact, they are conditioned by biology and 3,000,000 years of social programming to reject the idea out of hand.

    There are collections of individuals, AVfM is one of them, that pull together for specific reasons (like to enhance the website) but that is a much different thing than organized activism.

    The MRM is a naturally occurring almost random phenomena that is reaction in a number of different ways to the modern gender zeitgeist. MGTOW, Game, PUA, MRA, take your pick, they are all reactions, and the only really organized ones are commercialized and corrupt. I would go into a lecture on the masculine psyche and how it plays into this but it won’t help.

    Also, your blaming the “leadership” of a leaderless phenomena, because the SPLC gathered a group of people and blogs with “intel” provided by Mantitz, and told lies about nearly all of them, isn’t just off target, it’s just plain stupid.

    The SPLC’s antics were GOOD for the dissemination of men’s issues. And that is the only thing happening here. Spreading information so that we can increase our ability to compete in the arena of ideas. Where it concerns issues faced by men and boys, the ONLY way that has ever worked to force (which is what we have to do) people to engage the ideas, is to stir shit and offend. If you think otherwise…well, never mind, I have already established that you don’t know what is really going on here.

    AVfM has done more in less than two years to get anti-feminist counter-theory into the public dialog than any other single entity. Part of that is supporting blogs that you see fit to name call, but that also attract enough of an audience to play a role in making a difference.

    As much as I admire and respect Fidelbogen, I disagree with him strongly on this one. Anyone interested in the advancing the issues of men and boys, does not need leadership or even strong rhetorical discipline. The value in the latter there is for what it does within MRM circles to help men and women understand what it is they are advocating.

    But to REACH other people you have to make them FEEL, and if you can’t get anything else, anger will do just fine. Appealing to their intellect is useless and always has been. Ingrained misandry makes it so.

    A suggestion here, from someone that has no investment at all in what other people actually do. If you are interested in furthering the issues of men and boys, get out of the peanut gallery and do something. We have a shitload of Einsteins. They get exactly squat done.

    • No Paul, you don’t disagree with me as much as you think you do. The problem is that I sometimes do not make myself clear enough. My bad.

      The trouble is that my chessboard style of thinking is always ten or twelve moves ahead of any given conversation at any given moment. And this, understandably, lends itself to obscurity.

      You are right about reaching people and making them FEEL. We have no disagreement on that point at all. In fact, that too is part of rhetorical discipline — the part which dictates that you must know your public, and know the particular audience you want to reach at a particular moment.

    • As for the question of “leadership” — maybe that is not the best word, but every revolution needs a “vanguard” in one form or another. Even if nobody can isolate who or what that vanguard exactly is.

      The leaderless resistance model is good, but it is not altogether accurate to say that there are no “leaders”. For there are certainly initiators or preceptors to provide the initial precepts in some manner, even if their precise location is a bit obscure.

      • My opinion is that while a charismatic leader or leaders would greatly help the movement, they are not really necessary. Take for example the Baltic States Independence from the Soviet Union. There were no charismatic leaders yet they achieved their goal despite being outnumbered and outgunned. IN fact the whole Soviet empire came crashing down less than a year latter.
        Feminism can be undermined in the same fashion. However it takes time. Too many guys expect to wake up one day and all the female chauvinist laws & exploitation will be gone. It wont happen that way.

        • My opinion is that while a charismatic leader or leaders would greatly help the movement, they are not really necessary.

          Right. What we need more than anything else is focus. Conspiracy theory, white supremacism, racism, game, the paleo diet, Federal Reserve BS, etc. do nothing to support anti-feminism and cause sane men who are against feminism to leave. It’s that simple.

    • If you want to critique the problems of the MRM, you have to at least first understand what it is, and you clearly don’t. There are no leaders, no organizational structure, no one to align with from whom to distance yourself.

      Overall that’s the case, but individual uints have leaders. It’s obvious that it what I was talking about.

      because the SPLC gathered a group of people and blogs with “intel” provided by Mantitz, and told lies about nearly all of them, isn’t just off target, it’s just plain stupid.

      In some cases the only lie the SPLC told was that a blog in question had anything to do with anti-feminism.

      And that is the only thing happening here. Spreading information so that we can increase our ability to compete in the arena of ideas. Where it concerns issues faced by men and boys, the ONLY way that has ever worked to force (which is what we have to do) people to engage the ideas, is to stir shit and offend.

      What does promoting white supremacism, conspiracy theory, anti-semitism, racism, game, the paleo diet, lies about the Federal Reserve have to do with this? It does offend people, but not in the way you want if you’re serious about promoting anti-feminism. If you want to compete in the arena of ideas, wouldn’t it help to avoid getting involved in topics that have no relation to mens rights and alienate sane men?

      AVfM has done more in less than two years to get anti-feminist counter-theory into the public dialog than any other single entity.

      If this is true, it’s only because there has been so little anti-feminism action anyplace else. Like you said, anti-feminism is a naturally occuring phenomena so its happening in spite of what you’re doing not because of it.

      Part of that is supporting blogs that you see fit to name call, but that also attract enough of an audience to play a role in making a difference.

      How is white supremacism, racism, anti-semitism, game, the paleo diet, and conspiracy theory going to make a difference for mens rights? These people aren’t doing anything for you. Half the time they attack mens rights as liberalism, a mirror reflection of feminism, and/or a Jewish plot. Getting into bed with unsavory characters that support your goals is one thing. Getting into bed with unsavory characters that don’t support your goals is just plain stupid. What is going on here? Are you really just interested in promoting white supremacism and conspiracy theory or what?

      But to REACH other people you have to make them FEEL, and if you can’t get anything else, anger will do just fine.

      There’s nothing wrong with anger. If anything we need more anger not less. However, anger at the Jews, the Rockefellers, blacks, bread companies, the Federal Reserve, dead guys who had nothing to do with feminism, and other targets of the white supremacist and conspiracy theory set is pointless and counter productive for getting things done aganist feminism. I shouldn’t have to explain this to you.

    • Mr. Elam,

      as long as you are tolerant of the White nationalists I will proudly say “This is not my MRM.”

      Also disagree with you on the “when at a rape trial, acquit.”

      You are handing Marcotte and Fatrelle ammo. Get the bigots out of your “movement” or at least take a stand and say you don’t side with them…

      Regards,
      a no one who uses a pseudonym…

  14. I have not visited many of the sites the OP talks about but as I understand this post, the basic question is what to do about extremist. My opinion is you should not prevent people from commenting unless the comments advocate violence. Even if you hate their opinion they should still be able to voice it. U can always call them fools. Otherwise the MRM/AF will be no different than ABCNews, Huffington Post, Time Magazine etc. These media organizations always try to stamp out opposing points of view.
    As for the SPLC, if they start lying or misrepresenting the ideas behind any particular site, then this will bring up the larger question: “What else is the SPLC lying about”. In fact I would say that the entire integrity of the SPLC could then be open to question & criticism thereby undermining its foundation.

  15. There’s no MRM, just a bunch of disconnected guys chatting and blogging online.

    The WRM was and still is highly structured and organized, in real life.

  16. (This is the real Grizzly, I am only using a new email address, therefore, the new avatar)

    This is a fun side diversion little Alek Novy and others can find funny.

    I don’t know why I still do it to myself. I must be a masochist. But against better judgment I again checked the Roissy twitter. It seems that anti-game is reaching him, because he’s really ramped up his passive aggressive attacks against it. Some of them are kinda lolworthy:

    I love how devastating likes to convey his “findings” as being, even when say really exact opposite of what he thinks they do. ” : D

    • It’s funny. We’ve moved on, but they haven’t. All of us anti-gamers have either stopped posting against game, or commenting on game blogs months ago… Their butthurt is pretty bad.

      BP has moved on to other topics, I’ve moved on (except for a grand-total of 4 comments during the SLPC episode) and haven’t posted a single comment on it in months (let alone an article). YBM shut down his blog, others have moved onto other topics and no longer even bother to open gamer sites.

  17. The latest to hit the Manosphere… EFT

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/and-the-song-plays-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90635

    This guy is now pushing EFT. But it’s not his first attempt to use the MRA as a platform towards quackery.

    He said medical doctors and the medical profession are killing people on purpose, and that all of medicine is a scam after which he promoted and urged every MRA to go visit Mercola (the world’s leading quack). Seeing how respected doctors are in society, I asked him if this serves the MRA at all, whatsover.

    A random mainstream person comes to the site, and the first thing he sees is a conspiracy about how doctors are apparently all evil as a profession.

    • During a depressive episode several years ago, someone recommended EFT to me. It did absolutely nothing. The regular exercise I undertook after abandoning EFT was far more effective. Mercola is a laughable huckster. The genius of pushing EFT is that there is no way to test scientifically whether it “unblocks subtle energy.”

      It’s easy to sell gnostic quackery to unhappy people who feel their lives are out of control. Unfortunately this is the same mentality as some chick who believes her daily horoscope and wears crystals. It’s very comforting for a marginalized person to feel like he’s got some secret knowledge that the “sheeple” don’t have. It’s great if you enjoy the average guy on the street taking you about as seriously as he would an Above Top Secret poster.

      Suckers.

      This site takes apart the EFT hooey pretty well:

      http://www.skepdic.com/eft.html

      • Elam supports white supremacism? I could have sworn I read articles where he bashed white supremacists. Did I miss something?

        • I have no idea what BP is trying to accomplish here. It’s a pretty low-level manipulation he’s attempting.

          Obviously Elam works 16 hours a day and he can’t manually control every little aspect, nor invest all his time chasing down holes to plug.

          AVfM is about 90-95% to perfection, and it’s good enough for this stage of growth. Maybe once it grows and has a big enough staff, it can have a person who does more control, but it’s good enough for now.

        • Did I miss something?

          You missed BP’s definition of “support”. BP is basically saying that Elam needs to spend all his time “distancing” and kook-pointing.

          One problem, there’s only 16 hours in a day. Elam invests most of those in activism and FTSU, research etc. He doesn’t have time left to fulfill BP’s wishes for kook-pointing.

          Overall, I think Elam has played things perfectly and done enough on each front. He has made it clear there’s no space for gamers, WNs etc in MRA, and then he MOVED ON and started doing FTSU work (i.e. activism).

        • It’s an action vs. words problem. Elam has talked about being against white supremacism, but he gets in bed with the white supremacists over at inmalafide.

          With conspiracy theory he’s worse because he’s never said anything against it. That would be fine except that he has made that point against game and other things (conspiracy theory should be a part of the group that the MRM avoids) and his staff has used AVfM to promote conspiracy theory. What can I conclude other than the staff at AVfM wants to promote conspiracy theory.

  18. I’m new to a lot of these men’s rights sites, but overall AVfM seems okay: I don’t know much about JtO or anyone else, but on the whole I like most of what Paul Elam seems to do over there. I don’t think the site is perfect, and I see what Black Pill is saying about the fact he may still have some questionable links up, but I definitely think the site does more good than harm from what I’ve seen so far. Admitedly though I’ve never read the JtO stuff I missed all the conspiracy theories.

    • AVfM is 95% close to perfection, and Elam literally works 16 hours a day.

      That’s why I cringe when BP does his criticism on AVfM/Paul, because it’s nitpicking at this point and quite unfair.

      Elam is way too busy doing dozens of things at once, and he can’t control and police every aspect to perfection.

      This is why BP should come and on AVfM and call out the kook commenters himself if he’s worried instead of complaining that “elam isn’t doing enough”.

      • Let’s leave the kook commenters aside. They’re a big problem, but not the first thing that needs to be dealt with. Debating them is also pointless. I have tried that sort of thing before and it always ends up with the kooks putting their fingers in their ears and accusing you of working with the Rockefellers as soon as they can’t come up with any ideas to refute your arguments.

        Leaving commenters aside, let’s focus on posts and links. Why link to a place like Inmalafide if you’re against white supremacism and conspiracy theory? Inmalafide is now white supremacists r us. Hawaiian Fat Blob has similar problems. Paul Elam’s response from his comment here was to defend his linkage to white supremacism and conspiracy theory. What am I supposed to conclude from this? What is an outsider supposed to conclude from this? You keep pointing out correctly that this sort of thing will cause people to think anti-feminists are insane. All that’s happened is that Paul Elam is now providing more evidence to this point of view. It’s also providing fodder for our enemies like the SPLC.

        Another thing to stop would be posts about conspiracy theory. Not comments, but posts. What does JtO writing about conspiracy theory accomplish for anti-feminism? You and Fidel keep pointing out how these things are pointless for the MRM. Then why write conspiracy theory posts at all? It just provides more fodder for the SPLC and other enemies. Comments can always be written off as lone nutjobs. Posts can’t because they come from the authors of a blog so the represent the leadership of that blog. You keep saying how busy Elam and the rest of them are. I have a way of saving them some time. Don’t write posts defending crap irrelevant to anti-feminism like conspiracy theory. This should be completely obvious.

    • It’s not just links. It’s posts that have been written by AVfM staff defending conspiracy theory, not comments but posts. I have written up posts that link to those posts at AVfM so you can read up on it.

  19. How much work would removing two links take? To remain allied with white supremacists and anti-male gamer stooges is inexcusable.

    • Five seconds so time is no excuse here. Time isn’t the issue here either because Elam defended their inclusion as part of the MRM.

      They could save time by not writing posts defending conspiracy theory. Time not spent on conspiracy theory is time that can be spent on anti-feminism.

  20. Have to agree with BP again. Elam’s argument MIGHT have merit if only the comments espoused conspiracy theories, but the articles are just inexcusable. I also agree that there is nothing wrong with anger itself, and most of what I’ve seen at AVfM does a good job of getting that across.

    Just get rid of the conspiracy stuff and crack down on commenters espousing nonsense theories and AVfM will be fine. For the most part, I like what I see at AVfM.

    • The fact is since anyone can comment at AVfM, they aren’t necessarily responsible for comments, although I think that they need to ask what it is about the manosphere that attracts kooks while alienating sane men. The posts are a much bigger problem and tells us what AVfM is really all about.

  21. There is no men’s rights movement, and it’s extremely unlikely that there ever will be one. Sure, you have a few people here and there who are engaged in real activism (Baskerville is one, Fathers and Families is another), but it’s literally a handful. It has no popular support, and likely will never have much popular support, because most men themselves don’t identify with the issues it is trying to address (family law issues, workplace issues and so on). Most men just go along to get along, and get on with things. There is no momentum to anything around “men’s rights” — if anything, feminism is just getting more ingrained and stronger in the culture. Resistance really is futile, at this stage, at the “movement” level (at the personal level, of course, resistance can work fine depending on your own choices).

    The reason why the “manosphere” is so dominated by Game is because Game offers something that guys (especially but not only young guys) are interested in, namely: what can I do to get with women, or make my getting with women more successful. That generates a LOT of interest among men — much, much, much more than complaining about family law, VAWA and affirmative action does. I am not a “pro-Game” person, per se, but I do understand why men find it much more interesting than they do the men’s rights stuff.

    The overwhelming majority of guys who are very into men’s rights are divorced guys. The remainder are mostly guys who have always had problems getting with women. Both groups of guys are not “mainstream” (and I say that as a divorced guy myself) and are not appealing to a mass of guys, never mind women (in political/movement terms). Guys just don’t care that much about this stuff (unless they themselves are directly impacted by it) and are suspicious of guys who do, generally, hence no “men’s rights movement”.

    When I first came across men’s issues sites several years ago, I encountered an older former “MRA” (he posts sometimes around as “Anon Age 69″) who basically set me straight on all of this stuff: men’s rights activism generally doesn’t work. This guy had been an activist (real world, not virtual) for a couple of decades in the 80s and 90s and literally they got nowhere — laws kept getting worse (which is a trend which continues). The reason is that men don’t care about this stuff, generally speaking, unless they are in one of the displaced groups (divorced guys, guys who are bad with women). That isn’t changing, and it isn’t going to change. There is no momentum behind “men’s rights” — don’t let the internet (which has a way of magnifying tiny niches by concentrating them and making them seem bigger than they are) fool you. It’s a tiny pimple of the population — it has no support, and won’t be getting any significant support outside its tiny niche, any time soon.

    So where does that leave guys? Personal options. Make sense of your own life. Be aware of risks and plan accordingly, decide accordingly. But there isn’t any “MRM” that is going to “fix things” — not gonna happen. All of us and all of our kids and grandkids at the very least are going to be living in a thoroughly feminist society, and there’s nothing we can do to change that. It’s just reality. Also, the world/society/system is not going to come crashing down tomorrow and “reset things” just the way you want them to be, either. There is no crash coming. The system is fairly strong, and it will sustain itself just fine. You need to plan your own life, and make your own choices, based on the existing system, mores, and environment rather than hoping for some “MRM” or “crash” to fix things for you. Grow up.

    • Brendan…

      *There is no womens rights movement, and it’s extremely unlikely that there ever will be one. Sure, you have a few people here and there who are engaged in real activism, but it’s literally a handful. It has no popular support, and likely will never have much popular support, because most women themselves don’t identify with the issues it is trying to address (family law issues, workplace issues and so on). Most women just go along to get along, and get on with things. Grow up.*

      In fact, Brendan, the silliness you just wrote can probably be written about nearly every revolution, any time, anywhere. I am sure smug French noblemen in the 18th century were saying things just like what you just said.

      You suffer from a mental condition that finds it impossible to imagine that current trends can not continue. To people like you, what is happening now is what is going to happen, till the end of the time. Any current trend will simply continue forever. It is a peculiar mental handicap whose defining feature is perhaps a complete lack of imagination or capacity to envision change. Orwell discusses this peculiar and silly blindness quite well.

      I would advise you to grow up – how? Read a bit of history and how societies undergo radial shifts all the time, reflect on it. A good course of history reading – with intelligent reflection on what you read – can go some way to helping cure what is no doubt at least partly a congenital mental handicap.

      • The reason why the “manosphere” is so dominated by Game is because Game offers something that guys (especially but not only young guys) are interested in, namely: what can I do to get with women, or make my getting with women more successful. That generates a LOT of interest among men — much, much, much more than complaining about family law, VAWA and affirmative action does. I am not a “pro-Game” person, per se, but I do understand why men find it much more interesting than they do the men’s rights stuff.

        This is true, but guys who get sucked in by Game and do not find their way out again at some point are conspicuous for a lack character and integrity and are unlikely to be the sorts of people who have an impact on society. The psychology of Game is the psychology of the weak man – any man who does not find himself utterly disgusted sooner or late, at some point, with the woman-serving mentality of Game (it does not have to happen right away, but at some point in his exposure to game) is not the sort of person who counts for anything in any society, and certainly not the sort of person who makes a leader or a force in society. Game and its advice of changing yourself to suit others by definition appeals to men incapable of being strong leaders.

    • This is the dumbest comment ever on this blog which is a serious accomplishment with all the gamers and conspiracy theorists who have commented here.

      There is no men’s rights movement, and it’s extremely unlikely that there ever will be one.

      There is no anti-communist movement in Russia, and it’s extremely unlikely that there ever will be one. Sure, you have a few people here and there who are engaged in real activism, but it’s literally a handful. It has no popular support, and likely will never have much popular support, because most Russians themselves don’t identify with the issues it is trying to address (freedom and democracy and so on). Most Russians just go along to get along, and get on with things. There is no momentum to anything around “freedom and democracy” — if anything, communism is just getting more ingrained and stronger in the culture. Resistance really is futile, at this stage, at the “movement” level (at the personal level, of course, resistance can work fine depending on your own choices).

      There are documented quotes of people saying this as late as 1991. They have a lot of egg on their faces.

      The reason why the “manosphere” is so dominated by Game is because Game offers something that guys (especially but not only young guys) are interested in, namely: what can I do to get with women, or make my getting with women more successful.

      The same can be said about multi-level marketing scams and money. Both MLM and game don’t work and each have as much in common with getting rich and getting laid as five year old boys playing cops and robbers does with actual police work.

      The fact is that gamers except for the rare exception like PMAFT (who also thinks that lot of game crap is stupid) aren’t getting laid. All you have proven is that gullible and desperate morons fall for scams.

      When I first came across men’s issues sites several years ago, I encountered an older former “MRA” (he posts sometimes around as “Anon Age 69″) who basically set me straight on all of this stuff: men’s rights activism generally doesn’t work.

      So try a different strategy. If something doesn’t work, try something different. My life would be pathetic if I gave up after every minor setback. I certainly wouldn’t be rich like I am now. You’re so deep in the hole of Paleo-Game Cult thinking that you don’t realize that people actually accomplish things in the real world. Just because you guys in the Paleo-Game Cult are incapable of accomplishing anything doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

      There is no momentum behind “men’s rights” — don’t let the internet (which has a way of magnifying tiny niches by concentrating them and making them seem bigger than they are) fool you. It’s a tiny pimple of the population — it has no support, and won’t be getting any significant support outside its tiny niche, any time soon.

      This basically negates everything you said in your comment. Most men have never heard of game and never will. Most gamers have never heard of Roissy and never will. Gamers in the manosphere are a rounding error.

      All of us and all of our kids and grandkids at the very least are going to be living in a thoroughly feminist society, and there’s nothing we can do to change that. It’s just reality.

      So when are you going to commit suicide if you think everything is so hopeless?

      You just said that a feminist police state is coming and that it will last forever. You’re guranteed to be wrong about that. Things change all the time. If there’s one thing men will identify with it’s not wanting to live in a police state.

      Also, the world/society/system is not going to come crashing down tomorrow and “reset things” just the way you want them to be, either. There is no crash coming.

      Again, this shows you are deep into the Paleo-Game Cult mentality. They’re the compulsive doomsayers, not me. You can’t even imagine that I think differently.

      The system is fairly strong, and it will sustain itself just fine. You need to plan your own life, and make your own choices, based on the existing system, mores, and environment rather than hoping for some “MRM” or “crash” to fix things for you. Grow up.

      Just because you’re life if a failure like the rest of those in the Paleo-Game Cult is no reason to attack me. I have won very small battles against feminsm so I know larger victory is possible. It’s going to take some brainpower, but those of us who aren’t trapped in the Paleo-Game Cult mentality like you are capable of accomplishing things.

      • Hey, now. A lot of Russians did love the Soviet Union. People blow the USSR out of proportion just like feminists. There’s a lot of misinformation about it.

  22. You know I love ya brother,That’s why I’m gonna take the time to reply a bit.

    First off I cannot believe you wrote to Paul;
    “How is white supremacism, racism, anti-semitism, game, the paleo diet, and conspiracy theory going to make a difference for mens rights? ”

    Wow man,are we reading the same site?Because I see none of those things.
    As for Malafide,yeah, I’m a fan,but of course he’s posting as advertised.More truth than not, from what I see.

    As to my own “distance from reality”.Wow that’s a toughie.

    I had thought myself grounded real well in reality until I wound up in court on
    false DV charges.

    What I saw there was a bizarro world.

    Really, I do not expect anyone to see my point of view until they sit in the courts and see what happens there.

    For your own sake:Please do visit your local district family court and sit in, just for one day.

    • Wow man,are we reading the same site?Because I see none of those things.

      I wrote a post that has links to some examples of the staff of AVfM promoting conspiracy theory. Read it. Read the links.

      As for the rest, this comes down to his blogroll which includes Inmalafide and Hawaiian Fat Blob. If Paul Elam linked to Stormfront then everyone would think he was a white supremacist even if he spoke out against it. It’s the same thing here.

      As for Malafide,yeah, I’m a fan,but of course he’s posting as advertised.More truth than not, from what I see.

      What truth? Inmalafide is filled with lies about diet, economics & banking, white supremacists being anti-feminist, conspiracy theorists being anti-feminist, game working, etc. I can’t think of any example where Inmalafide promotes truth.

      For your own sake:Please do visit your local district family court and sit in, just for one day.

      I know. I have been the victim of false sexual harassment claims. I’m the one who wants the MRM focused on real issues like this and not conspiracy theory and game.

  23. I bought and read Clarisse’s book on PUAs:

    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/03/09/clarisse-thorn-releases-book-on-pickup-artists-rp

    I wish I could quote passages from the book, but kindle doesn’t have that option. She talks at length at how feminist game is, and how compatible game is with feminism.

    She also praises how feminist most aspects of game are, and talks about how much of a natural ally PUA is to feminism and how it can be used to teach and disseminate feminism.

    She has also taught PUA workshops, and shares examples on feminists working within the PUA community, trying to hijack it and have it teach more feminist values.

    Feminists are currently doing with the PUA community what they did with the atheist community.

    • Alek, there are programs that allow you to extract, copy and paste your kindle highlights and notes from your kindle books and they’re freeware. I’m on my cellphone now otherwise I’d google and give you the names.

  24. @Everyone

    This is extremely relevant and interesting to see. Can those who claim that game is mra-like explain THIS to me:

    http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/clarisse-thorns-new-pua-ebook/

    This is the most misandric blog in quite a while. I think forweg declared them to be the leader male-traitors and the worst offenders in manginaism.

    About half the commenters are feminazis, about half the commenters are manginas. MRAs are banned from posting…

    CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY FEMINISTS ARE DEFENDING GAME? You will see a few skeptics are challenging game/pua… but FEMINISTS AND MANGINAS ARE DEFENDING GAME

    No kidding, look at the url. These are well known anti-male entities and commenters.

    CAN ANYONE SHOW ME ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE OF FEMINISTS OR MANGINAS DEFENDING MGTOW? EVEN ONE EXAMPLE?

    CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME why feminists continually do false-flagging attacks and shut down entire servers dedicated to MGTOW, but have never done such for any pua site?

    If supposedly “pua is hated than feminists” -> THEN HOW COME THEY’RE DEFENDING PUA.

    HOW IS THAT A BOOK WAS RELEASED YESTERDAY BY A LEADING FEMINIST TALKING ABOUT A PUA/FEMINIST COOPERATION? (she mentions other feminists who have the same ideas). She has an ENTIRE SECTION IN THE BOOK explaining all the aspects of game that are FEMINIST IN NATURE. (she says only a few aspects of pua are non-feminist, and feminists can reform those).

    Any of you fucking gulible game-defenders lurking here can explain this to me!?!?!!?

    • I predict what a big response will be among Roissyite gamers: she loves PUAs but hates the Roissy brand of PUA, therefore Roissy PUAs are an evolved superior type of PUA that is needed to fight feminism. It’s only the old school PUA that’s bad.

      (Not what I believe, but my prediction for how Roissyites will rationalize this after my observations of them)

      • I think you are right. That’s what their excuse will most likely be.

        Except it would be inaccurate, because there’s no difference between roissy game and whatever other game. The only reason she/feminists dislike roissy is because of his language/mental frame.

        Roissy: Western women are fucked up cunts that deserve to be pumped and dumped, therefore go do ABC

        General PUA: Women have evolved to be attracted to ABC, and this sparks attraction in them, therefore go do ABC

        Natural Game PUA: You need to become a MAN who’s naturally good with women, you need to become a person who finds himself doing ABC

        In other words… they all give the same steps and techniques, only the rhetoric surrounding it is different.

        • The only difference between Roissyite game and other forms of game is that Roissyite game attracts racists, anti-semites, conspiracy theorists, and other kooks.

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