82 comments on “The First Hit Is Always Free

  1. Even if the pua crap is given away for free it is still a scam but it just so happens to be ripping you off for your time.

    • A bunch of anti-gamers were talking about running a class action lawsuit against the top game companies with the charge “they fucking stole our youth!!!!”

      When exiting game, most people feel massive sorrow for the lost year, not so much any financial losses. Heck even if you ask the guys who were stupid enough to waste serious money on this game cram – they will tell you their greatest regret is the time and opportunity wasted.

  2. I do not think your analogy with drug dealers giving free shit to new customers is apt. Drug dealers already have a large pool of junkies whom to sell, they do not have to create it. Most people get their first experience with banned substances through friends who share some.

    Drugs are a tangible commodity with limited supply which often does not satisfy demand. Banned substances need to be created or imported with great risks to personal safety and freedom to those involved in such activities.

    I can safely conjure up my own game in my home, and you can do it too. You could start a blog and call it Alpha Stud Game, and write meaningless articles on how chicks are attracted to you, and how we can achieve the same results, and even though you are what you are, you might actually, with little effort, make some decent niche among game blogs.

    The whole reason therefore, why we have game blogs for free, is that game is cheap. Game shit is produced in mass quantities, and there is large pool of delusional fucks willing to consume it. And since game is an intangible product, bunch of rants to be more precise, gamers are not really after the substance, they follow personalities. Chicks love a dealer because he has the substance, dicks love a gamer because he is so alpha.

    And when a game blogger thinks he is the ultimate alpha, he has hundreds of delusional fucks commenting on his site, he has another few hundreds of the same fucks linking to him, he has random people thinking that he is so great, and gullible MRAs promoting him, then it crosses his mind that he might actually capitalise on his fame.

      • I like the analogy with a cult. Game is cult with its own priests, and while some of them are just parish nobodies, some are bishops or even cardinals.

  3. do you give them a money-back guarantee on the s.t.d.s they contract also?

    how about on the character they failed to develop b/c they were busy artificially constructing their behavior to please and screw women?

    giving naive (and often fatherless) young men poor advice is bad enough, athol — but profiting from it is really ugly

    for your sake and theirs, i hope you get out of the game business

    • Athol Key sells “married man” game which is even less measurable than pickup. It’s measured as successful by how little your wife screws you over and how little she nags.

      So as long as you haven’t committed suicide or had half of everything taken, you are considered a “success” in “married man game”.

      • Wake me when this blog saves as many men from divorce court as I do.

        That’s what I said. Your claims are even more idiotically unprovable than game-pickup claims.

        There’s no way to falsify your claims.

        -> Nobody can prove that the person would have been divorced if they weren’t reading your scammy crap.

        -> Even if people do read your crap and do end up divorced, you can say they didn’t read enough, or understand it well enough

        In “marriage game” YOU ARE FUCKING working a SAMPLE SIZE OF ONE and a variable that only goes between “yes/no”. How fucking pathetic is that?

        That guy has only one wife and one marriage. There is no way to split test that crap. With pickup gamers we can at least challenge them to do a split-test “approach a 100 women without game, and 100 with, and see which time you fuck more, write it all in an excel file”.

        With your claims, how the fuck can one falsify it? Marry a 100 wifes and have 100 mariages using Athol Key’s scam, and a 100 marriages without it? Seriously, what the fuck?

        • -> You game retards say crap like “99% of men have no game”.

          -> You marriage gamers say that 50% of marriages end in divorce (amongst whites it’s much lower btw, and most of your audience is white racists).

          So EVEN USING YOUR OWN MATH

          -> 50% of men with no game manage to stay married over a lifetime LIFETIME
          -> That means over a given year, the divorce rates among men with no game is extremely small

          So how is that the readers of a scam that you just invented THIS YEAR not being divorced (yet) evidence that it does anything except scam gullible losers out of their money?

        • Not many days go by now without getting reader email saying my book has saved/improved their marriage and that they are recommending the book to their friends because of that.

          Plus there’s often comments left on the blog to the effect of my stuff is working for them.

          So while I do agree that there hasn’t been a scientific study to evaluate the effectiveness of MMSL, I do have plenty of positive reader feedback that it’s working.

        • Not many days go by now without getting reader email saying my book has saved/improved their marriage and that they are recommending the book to their friends because of that.

          Do they email you six months or a year later when their wife walks out on them or they discover their wife fucking the garbage man?

        • In “marriage game” YOU ARE FUCKING working a SAMPLE SIZE OF ONE

          It’s really a sample size of zero, since there was no possibility of pickup. A man already has his wife so there is no pickup which means even if game existed married game would be a contradiction in terms.

        • It’s really a sample size of zero, since there was no possibility of pickup. A man already has his wife so there is no pickup which means even if game existed married game would be a contradiction in terms.

          Well to be fair, they define their version of game as different than pickup. So in their version the goal is to not get fucked over by a wife, the goal isn’t to pickup.

          Yes, I realize the disinction is bullshit, yes, since 99% of “new game” or “marriage game” is just rehashing of concepts invented for “pickup game”.

          What I’m showing is that even if you use their definition, it’s still silly, they still are dealing with a sample size of one.

          If you use the real barometer of game (picking up a woman), then it’s a contradiction in term, since they use game (something invented for pickup) on an already picked up woman, lol.

        • Well to be fair, they define their version of game as different than pickup. So in their version the goal is to not get fucked over by a wife, the goal isn’t to pickup.

          The problem is that without the potential for pickup, we can’t discern if anything actually happened. Marriage or LTR game is not just an untestable hypothesis as a result. It is impossible to discern if anything is actually happening much less if it works or not. It’s as a bad as (heterosexual) women being pro-game (such as Susan Walsh), since it is impossible for them to know anything about game due to their lack of potential for pickup.

      • Not many days go by now without getting reader email saying my book has saved/improved their marriage and that they are recommending the book to their friends because of that.

        Plus there’s often comments left on the blog to the effect of my stuff is working for them.

        So while I do agree that there hasn’t been a scientific study to evaluate the effectiveness of MMSL, I do have plenty of positive reader feedback that it’s working.

        -> Not a day goes by without the catholic church getting anecdotal reports that FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST saved and improved someone’s marriage.

        -> Not a day goes by without the muslim cleric getting anecdotal reports that FAITH IN MOHAMMED saved and improved someone’s marriage.

        -> Not a day goes by without Richard Dawkins getting anecdotal reports that LEAVING RELIGION saved and improved someone’s marriage.

        Anecdotal evidence is a misnomer and an oxymoron. It’s on the same level as superstition, holy water and ghosts.

        If you were selling cancer-curing water you’d be a scammer.

        You’re selling marriage-saving game. What does that make you? A SCAMMER

        • Athol, by proxy of his book, saved my family from divorce court.

          Tom Cruise claims the same about Scientology.

        • You’re the commenter whining about straw men above.
          Sure, some people will attribute scientology, others may say “Christianity saved my marriage”, or “Counseling saved my marriage”, or “The Wonderbra saved my marriage.” None of which are “provable” in the sense you are seeking.

          They do work for the individuals who make the statements, however, and what you are suggesting that people who are trying to go from point A to point B haven’t actually arrived at point B when others are standing at point B and telling you otherwise. I’m saying that “Athol Kay saved my marriage”.

          Relationships and marriages are not a science. There is no such thing as a predictable and repeatable response in human relationships. There are times when it might be nice to have a debugging flowchart for my wife, but it really doesn’t work that way. By demanding some rigorous scientific method I think you are suggesting that it does.

          The point of fact is that Athol’s book gave me a perspective to look at my marriage in a way that I haven’t looked at it in nigh a decade. The sex life has improved and my wife adores me. This is entirely a result in the changes I have made in my life after reading Athol’s book.

          Hate all you want, but those of us living a better life thanks to Athol are in his debt. You, on the other hand, are providing nothing of value here.

        • Sure, some people will attribute scientology, others may say “Christianity saved my marriage”, or “Counseling saved my marriage”, or “The Wonderbra saved my marriage.” None of which are “provable” in the sense you are seeking.

          They do work for the individuals who make the statements, however, and what you are suggesting that people who are trying to go from point A to point B haven’t actually arrived at point B when others are standing at point B and telling you otherwise. I’m saying that “Athol Kay saved my marriage”.

          You have just said that we have to take seriously anyone who says something like, “Crack saved my marriage” or “Aliens from outer space saved my marriage”.

          You are not exempt from scientific inquiry.

        • They do work for the individuals who make the statements, however, and what you are suggesting that people who are trying to go from point A to point B

          Which high school did you drop out of?

          Do you know anything at all about logic and causality?

          -A> It is hot and the land is dry

          -X> the shaman performs a dance for the gods. 

          -B> It rains in a week. 

          Wow lookie here, we’re at point B!!!! Let’s all do shaman dancing to the gods.

          Relationships and marriages are not a science. There is no such thing as a predictable and repeatable response in human relationships. There are times when it might be nice to have a debugging flowchart for my wife, but it really doesn’t work that way.

          Au contraire I AM saying that it is too random on an indiviual basis.

          It is THEM, the Gamers who claim to be able to tell you what to do and say, when the truth is nobody knows that, it is random, there are no rules or guidelines. Every wife is a random unique creature.

          In fact that’s how the scam works… If you end at point B they take credit, if you don’t end at point B, they blame you. The truth is that it is so random that not even the best scientists in the world could tell you what to do with 100% confidence, at best they’d give hesitant Claims on what might work some of the time.

          A gamer however will pretend to know a FOOLPROOF method. 

          Scientifically validated methods only give suggestions that “might work” based on statistics. 

          By demanding some rigorous scientific method I think you are suggesting that it does.

          -> Dude it’s quote simple, it’s called SAMPLE SIZE

          –  You take 100 marriages that have a problem and have them read Athol Kay’s book

          – You take a 100 marriages that have a problem and send then to a LICENCED therapist

          Compare how many from each group divorce… It’s simple you see… It’s not quantum physics.

          In order to prove its not a scam you only have to show it works better ona Sample population… You don’t have to prove it on individual levels, so your excuse is pretty desperate. 

        • A gamer however will pretend to know a FOOLPROOF method.

          Scientifically validated methods only give suggestions that “might work” based on statistics.

          By demanding some rigorous scientific method I think you are suggesting that it does.

          -> Dude it’s quote simple, it’s called SAMPLE SIZE

          – You take 100 marriages that have a problem and have them read Athol Kay’s book

          – You take a 100 marriages that have a problem and send then to a LICENCED therapist

          Compare how many from each group divorce… It’s simple you see… It’s not quantum physics.

          This is how you deal with this sort of thing, but it’s very noticeable that the gamers including Athol Kay all take the route of “proof by ancedote”. Not only does this have multiple logical fallacies, but we don’t hear from all the people game crap didn’t work for. We also don’t hear from guys who thought it worked, but their wives divorced them a year later.

          There’s this one gamer who went by the ID of “mormon men”. He ended up divorced. Did this cause him to reevaluate game since game obviously failed him? No, he’s going to do the same thing over and over again. We can’t trust anecdotes from gamers since they will tell us game succeded when it objectively failed in their lives.

        • -A> It is hot and the land is dry

          -X> the shaman performs a dance for the gods.

          -B> It rains in a week.

          Wow lookie here, we’re at point B!!!! Let’s all do shaman dancing to the gods.

          A culture lacking our understanding of the weather would therefore continue X until B no longer happens. At which point X may need to be re-evaluated.

          Me, lacking advanced understanding of intergender relationships started at:
          -A> There is no sex and the wife is a nag.
          -X> Read Athol’s book, reflect upon evolutionary biology, and perform relationship dances discussed therein.
          -B> Wife opens legs and tells her mother and friends what a wonderful husband I am. Often.

          I would be an idiot to ignore the effect of X on outcome B. unless you are suggesting that, like the rain, B would have happened anyways.

          I’ve read a lot of books by a lot of licensed therapists before coming across Athol’s book. None of them solved the problems. So by your logic, those licensed therapists deserve much the same derision that you are offering Athol.

        • I’ve read a lot of books by a lot of licensed therapists before coming across Athol’s book. None of them solved the problems. So by your logic, those licensed therapists deserve much the same derision that you are offering Athol.

          We’re not endorsing those therapists. Athol Kay is no different from them really, except that they have degrees and Athol Kay is an armchair therapist.

  4. how about on the character they failed to develop b/c they were busy artificially constructing their behavior to please and screw women?

    Right on.

    Except, donchaknow, game really is not about faking. People who think its about faking dont really understand what game is. After all, 99% of guys will never understand game. We cant tell you exactly how its unlike faking and what it really is, but if you dont get it, you just dont get it.

    • Haha, yeah, I love that one.

      They always deny any criticism with “you don’t understand game”, but they themselves don’t either as was demonstrated by the PaulElam/Frost debate.

      The fuckers can’t define game even if their life depended on it.

  5. “Athol Key sells “married man” game which is even less measurable than pickup. It’s measured as successful by how little your wife screws you over and how little she nags.”

    oh, “married man game” — excuse my ignorance

    to be fair, i guess that’s one step removed from the worst intents/consequences of the Way of the P.U.A.

    still, “married man game” spreads the false meme that game/p.u.a. is a viable and preferable method for male development and male-female relationship

    the idea that one should have to “game” one’s own wife is a form of pussybegging and volutary subjugation

    leading your wife means you tell her what to do, and she does it . . . without endless tactics and strategies and dramatic interludes that further encourage western women to make soap operas out of everyone’s lives… including men

    look, athol, if you need to convince yourself you’re “helping others” b/c some misguided, inexperienced readers sent you feedback, hey, whatever — but your interest is money and a certain type of celebrity, built on the backs of the credulous and desperate

    game promotes itself as some great socio-relational breakthrough, when in fact these cueing and signaling methods have been around for decades, long before rossy showed up to re-hash and re-package them

    game feeds off the relational desperation resulting from a feminist western world, and its solution (gaming one’s wife or potential sexual conquest) not only fails to address the problem, but worsens it by teaching boys and men that they must develop and employ complex, ongoing strategies in order to interact with females

    cant understand why athol’s tome isn”t a book-of-the-month selection on oprah, b’c game is just another placative extension of the matriarchal mentality

  6. It is impossible to discern if anything is actually happening much less if it works or not.

    But the entire point of your post is that I’m running a scam, so I would imagine you have come up with some sort of way to determine that it’s not working, that I am aware of that, and I purposely continue to do so in order to make money.

    So do you guys actually have any proof that I’m running a scam? Or is this all mere assertion / public accusation without any evidence whatsoever meriting your claim? Is there even any anecdotal evidence that I’m personally ripping people off?

    If you want to name me personally in a post as a scammer, I’m expecting a hell of a lot better evidence than “his blog is free and it hooks people” as evidence of me doing evil. You’re making claims about me personally, so the burden of proof falls on you to back them up.

    Frankly this isn’t the first time you’ve just balantly made shit up about me and published it either. Claiming I was anti-masturbation and anti-porn on a prior post just proves you haven’t even read anything I’ve written on those topics. You’re not even reviewing the content of the blog or book, simply passing judgment on what I do based on your own assumptions. Have you even read the stuff that’s freely available of the book content both on the blog and Amazon? If not, do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

    Seriously, go buy the fucking book on Kindle, get the Kindle PC app, read the damn thing and return it for 100% of your money back. Then come talk to me about the Marriage 2.0 chapter.

    I mean seriously, considering the bold typed warnings I have about getting married in the book in that chapter, you’d think you’d fucking champion it. You’re an asshat that simply has no clue what you’re talking about when it comes to my work.

    • But the entire point of your post is that I’m running a scam, so I would imagine you have come up with some sort of way to determine that it’s not working, that I am aware of that, and I purposely continue to do so in order to make money.

      So do you guys actually have any proof that I’m running a scam? Or is this all mere assertion / public accusation without any evidence whatsoever meriting your claim? Is there even any anecdotal evidence that I’m personally ripping people off?

      You do realize how fucking retarded this technique is.

      -> So BlackPill is required to PROVE A NEGATIVE (that even science dares not attempt.

      -> Yet you promise jedi-mind-powers and offer absolutely no evidence.

      By definition, if sell something that you have NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE IF IT WORKS, YOU ARE BY DEFINITION SELLING A SCAM.

      If someone sells a bottle “holy water which I sang into nice songs” as a cure of cancer, are they “not a scammer” until a longitudinal 20 year study is done to show whether it cures cancer or not?

    • But the entire point of your post is that I’m running a scam, so I would imagine you have come up with some sort of way to determine that it’s not working

      If you can’t prove it’s working, then it’s not working. Game without the possibility of pickup, which is what you are selling, is untestable. Since you’re selling something that is untestable (and I don’t need to read your book to determine it’s untestable just as I don’t need to read a book on creationism to know its untestable), what you are doing is a scam.

  7. @Alek/BlackPill

    Are we saying here that if a man is struggling in his marriage there is no way whatsoever that he can change his behaviour to improve the relationship and minimise the chances of divorce.

    No way whatsoever?

    • Dude, why are you strawmaning? Seriously?

      Of course there are ways to improve relationships and marriages. There’s even scientifically validated therapies and interventions that have passed strict scientific rigor.

      • Dude, I’m not strawmaning.

        I’ve not read AK’s book. So I don’t know if AK’s ideas are correct or not.

        Have you read AK’s book and if so can you explain why AK’s book is nonsense?

        • Have you read AK’s book and if so can you explain why AK’s book is nonsense?

          I don’t need to read his book to know it’s nonsense just as I don’t to read a book on creationism to know its nonsense. While the pickup gamers provide no evidence for their game, at least in principle their game is testable. Married/LTR game isn’t even testable since there is no possibility of pickup. “Not divorced yet” is not a testing method, and that’s all the married/LTR gamers can tell you. Married/LTR game is like creationism in that both are never testable so you have no idea if its works or not. Since creationism isn’t testable, most thinking people regard it as an absurdity and bullshit. The same applies to married/LTR game.

        • Black Pill – Thanks for your admission that you haven’t even read anything I’ve written. I appreciate your honesty.

          Thank you for admitting that what you do is based on applying pickup theories to marriage. The same theories that are proven scams and invented by multi-millionaires who became rich scamming gullible nerds.

        • That’s not an “admission” when it’s something I’ve said has been an influence from the get go.

          You’re not even aware of anything I’ve given credit to in the book are you? You’re assuming the only thing I’ve based my writing on is other Game writing.

        • That’s not an “admission” when it’s something I’ve said has been an influence from the get go.

          So how is it Black Pill’s admission then? He’s never claimed to read every single new crappy game product ever released.

          If I believe and know that scientology is crap and I left the cult 2 years ago, I don’t need to read every new book they release to still call it a scam.

          You’re not even aware of anything I’ve given credit to in the book are you? You’re assuming the only thing I’ve based my writing on is other Game writing.

          You can give credit to the way your dog farts for all I care. The point is you’re selling GAME. It means it is based on the CORE theory of game. It means it’s majorly GAME. It means it is majorly based on a PROVEN scam.

          If Bob releases a book called “the scientology of playing basketball”, you wouldn’t care what ELSE influenced him in writing the book, HE STILL bases it around SCIENTOLOGY.

        • I appreciate your honesty.

          Were you expecting dishonesty? I know there’s lots of dishonesty in the game community, but I am not a part of the game community.

  8. Married man game can be tested.

    Simply have a bunch of married men report on their view of the state of satisfaction in their marriage.

    The dudes read some married man game theory, go to some seminars or whatever. And then have the dudes report back their findings after (say) a year of applying whatever behavioural changes are suggested.

    You’d need a control group of dudes who have no married man game input as well.

    If married man game is valid, then you ought to see a trend of guys who have studied it reporting that their marriage has improved. Or alternatively they may report no discernible differences.

    The subjectivity of this type of test makes it imperfect but if there is a sufficiently large sample size you can overcome this issue.

    • Simply have a bunch of married men report on their view of the state of satisfaction in their marriage.

      You do realize that using your logic proves both religion and atheism to be satisfactory?

      You do realize your “test” proves that “scientology works”?

      You do realize we invented this cute little thing called “science” and “scientific methodology” so we can test shit?

      The subjectivity of this type of test makes it imperfect but if there is a sufficiently large sample size you can overcome this issue.

      No there isn’t. There are just a few hundred suckers who are into this crap. You’d need an actual population (think tens of thousands).

      And you’d need to account for time.

      About 99% of people who are in game swear it works for them when they first discover it. About 5 years later, 99% of them claim it was a scam and they regret having believed in it.

      This married game crap is a brand new scam.

      • Alek in an earlier post said:

        “Of course there are ways to improve relationships and marriages. There’s even scientifically validated therapies and interventions that have passed strict scientific rigor.”

        How were these therapies and interventions scientifically validated? Would it be possible to prove/disprove MM Game in the same way?

        At the moment we have one bunch of guys saying it’s a scam and another bunch saying it isn’t. I’m attempting to find a solution to the challenge of testing it. At the moment it’s one person’s word against another.

        For what it’s worth I’m happy to accept that 99% of game stuff is bollocks. Although there are exceptions such as Alan Roger Currie’s Mode 1.

        Surely a scientific test would be useful if it can be done? If a 10K plus sample size is required, so be it…

        PS – how do you put other commenters’ quotes in boxes? It looks better than my use of quote marks.

        Cheers.

        • How were these therapies and interventions scientifically validated? Would it be possible to prove/disprove MM Game in the same way?

          We’ve been challenging those fuckers to a test for years. They are the ones avoiding scientific validation.

          See this:

          Try and post a comment on Roissy’s SIMPLY ASKING if any gamer has EVER considered taking it. It won’t matter how politely or indirectly you mention the topic of their crap being validated, you will be PERMANENTLY banned.

          Try it on any PUA/gamer forum on planet earth and see what you get. You will be called names, called crazy… Anything except having a scientific test accepted or liked as an idea.

          At the moment we have one bunch of guys saying it’s a scam and another bunch saying it isn’t. I’m attempting to find a solution to the challenge of testing it. At the moment it’s one person’s word against another.

          Honestly, that’s pretty foolish.

          Let’s say a famous scammer comes up with a new product. Let’s say a person who has been selling “ghost blessed cancer curing water” for 10 years now comes up with a “guide to saving marriages communicated to me by ghosts”.

          Would you say “I don’t know man, it’s his word against theirs”.

          1) THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING A CLAIM. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT NEED PROOF.

          2) THEY HAVE A HISTORY OF SELLING FRAUDS AND SCAMS AND NOT PROVING A SINGLE SCAM OVER 10 years. (they have never proven pickup which is now assuredly a scam, as portions of it are entirely disproven and false according to thousands of scientific studies)

          3) THEY’RE NOW SELLING A NEW PRODUCT, WHICH IS JUST A VARIATION ON THE OLD ONE WHICH WAS A 100% PROVEN SCAM

          And you’re like “I dunno man, this new scam, they changed a few letters here and there, and it’s 2% different than the original scam, so it’s your word against their”.

          Even if they invest 0.001% of their profits they could scientifically validate the pickup shit they’ve been selling. Why haven’t they? The few times they’ve been tested in casual experiments (on tv shows) they’ve failed miserably and had worse-than-average results

          Seriously Ricardo, check your logic

        • At the moment we have one bunch of guys saying it’s a scam and another bunch saying it isn’t. I’m attempting to find a solution to the challenge of testing it. At the moment it’s one person’s word against another.

          You don’t understand what I’m saying. It’s PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the married gamers to provide evidence in the same way that it is physically impossible for creationists to provide evidence of their theories. (The pickup gamers theoretically could provide evidence, but they refuse to do so, likely because at some level they know they can’t produce any evidence.) Since providing evidence is impossible for the married gamers, they are by definition running a scam selling something that they can never prove.

    • Simply have a bunch of married men report on their view of the state of satisfaction in their marriage.

      In addition to all of the problems Alek listed with this, a man could report satisfaction in his marriage and now know that his wife is getting fucked by the mailman.

      Feelings are not an objective scientific metric.

    • And your point would be?

      If you go to PuaHate or any forum of ex-gamers, you will see most of the anger comes not from having spent money on this crap, it’s from having years of one’s life gone, robbed by these fuckers. It’s all those years you spent following a scam and screwing yourself up as a person.

    • Oh, and most feminist books are in the same price-range… just sayin’

      Let’s go hand out and get guys reading feminist books.

  9. Pingback: Like Creationists, Gamers Want To Be Exempt From Scientific Inquiry | The Black Pill

  10. Guys,

    Athol and others may have USEFUL advice WRT relationships; that’s all I’m saying. There has to be something to the testimonials. We KNOW that what we get in the national media (I refuse to call them ‘mainstream’, because there’s nothing mainstream about ’em) is crap; we know what the establishment gives us is crap. Why not take a look at alternatives?

    The main reason I don’t do the game thing is because, in order to do it right, you have to become someone else. Badger even ADMITTED this in a comment over at Dalrock’s a few weeks ago; he admitted it! I like myself as I am, thank you; I don’t see a need to remake who I am. Improve on myself? Yes, we could all stand to do that. Remake myself? Become someone else? No thank you. THAT is my big problem with game…

    MarkyMark

    • I answered this indirectly in reply to your question on how I came to leave the game business.

      You see, I too believed that since it has a few gems of useful common sense tips buried in, that the net effect was good. Hey, we suck guys into this using lies, but at least we teach them the basic stuff they need to (in addition to the 95% of bullshit).

      The actual practical real world result however Mark, was that I found that most guys were getting more fucked up than they were helped. Getting 5% medicine to get 95% poison is a huge price to pay my friend.

      For every one useful tip you get that helps, you get 19 tips that fuck you up, make you OCD, fuck up your integrity, mess up your values or make you weirder.

  11. Hi Alek

    Bit of a difference between the philosophy of ghosts saving marriage and a book that (I assume because I haven’t read it) advises behavioural changes to improve one’s marriage situation don’t you reckon?

    Thanks also for the link to seduction myth. Funnily enough I posted some suggested tests there on PUA game, which weren’t a million miles away from the ones you suggested.

    I think it’s worth me re-emphasising that the only point I’m trying to make is that married game is testable whilst acknowledging that the test is both subjective and has flaws but that such flaws can be minimised by a large sample size: you suggested tens of thousands. I think that’s doable if the game gurus make as much as you say they do.

    I also accept the fact that the gamers’ unwillingness to have their hypothesis tested is compelling evidence that game (outside of the normal common-sense stuff) is bollocks.

    But surely it would be nice to carry out a test to prove it?

    • I think it’s worth me re-emphasising that the only point I’m trying to make is that married game is testable whilst acknowledging that the test is both subjective and has flaws but that such flaws can be minimised by a large sample size: you suggested tens of thousands. I think that’s doable if the game gurus make as much as you say they do.

      The ones who make a ton of money and have tens of thousands to test again are not teaching marriage game. The ones with the money and millions of clients are teaching pickup.

      So yes, it would be theoretically possible to test Athol Key’s scam (as I said before) by

      A) having 10,000 couples where the man reads his scammy crap
      B) having 10,000 couples where the man doesn’t read athol kay

      After 5 years, you can reassess the marriage and find out what happened, and it would be valid enough, yes.

      Here’s my overall point – marriage game is 95% based on pickup game theories, which themselves are 10000x more easily and cheaply provable

      If we can get the guys who invented pickup game to participate in a simple experiment and show if there’s *anything at all* to what they’re saying (even a single percent above placebo), then we can explore further.

      But if the original theories and theoreticians are proven to be a 100% fraud with a simple experiment (that would take a single weekend), then you know it makes no sense to even study athol-crap.

      Like, athol’s crap is basically pickup-crap with a few things tweaked. If the original is proven a 100% scam (with not even a single ounce of effect or truth), that right there says all derivatives are crap/scam too.

      There’s no need to wait decades to test out all their silly claims. We can have them tested in a single weekend (their core, original, founding stuff).

        • Alek, looks like I got my point across.

          Changing topic slightly:

          I think the reason that game is considered to be effective is because most guys who attend game boot camps either:

          – Don’t have a wide circle of friends and don’t get out much; or

          – Do go out but don’t chat up women

          Game boot camps get guys chatting up women and finding out that the responses they get are more positive than they would have thought – so they think that game works.

          Bottom line is that stuff like Alan Roger Currie’s Mode 1 is the no-nonsense common-sense advice that needs to be taken on board, correct?

      • I think the reason that game is considered to be effective is because most guys who attend game boot camps either:

        – Don’t have a wide circle of friends and don’t get out much; or

        – Do go out but don’t chat up women

        Game boot camps get guys chatting up women and finding out that the responses they get are more positive than they would have thought – so they think that game works.

        Yes, you pretty much nailed it. To most of them simply approaching a woman and her responding nicely is a MIRACLE. They actually take that as a sign that they’re a “player”.

        This is of course due to their small social experience, and not knowing that most women are nice to most normal non-creepy approaches. They don’t sleep with you or want to fuck you, but they’ll be nice.

        When I go out with local gamers (new guys who join the cult still invite me out from previous contacts). I go out with them, and I’m ussually the only guy to meet and chat up women (I do everywhere I go, just being social.

        These guys have like HUGE wide-open mouths and are like “did you see what alek did!!! Omg that alek is a NATURAL” -> But I’m like, dude, it’s calling being a normal human being. I’m not actually fucking any of these women.

        This is why most of game-crap is based on shooting videos of approaches, and basically having “approach camps”. They know that socially inexperienced men think that “good approach = casanova”… Whereas most people have overcome that phase at like 16.

        Bottom line is that stuff like Alan Roger Currie’s Mode 1 is the no-nonsense common-sense advice that needs to be taken on board, correct?

        There’s several common sense things. Mode one is one of them. Though making your entire life “mode-one-ized” is a bit socially miscalibrated. There’s a time and place for mode-one, and you can generally tell when you can get away with it.

        Personally, I do some combination of the mainstream SIRC guide, explained here:

        http://www.seductionmyth.com/#comment-769

        …with knowing when to go into “mode one”.

        Read everything from that comment down, the next 10 comments, a nice discussion has formed on crystallizing what does one actually do, if he no longer believes in game, but needs a specific step-by-step method.

  12. Alex – so why don’t you cull down the 5% of Game that you think does work, into a written form. Then say cross reference that with say the work of Dr Helen Fisher. Obviously there will always be guys struggling with dating/relationships/women, so it would be a useful tool and you could make a reasonable return for your effort.

    Boot camps are crazily priced. I’ve always just assumed that a $2000 ticket for a camp allowed a budget of $1000 for hookers planted in the club and $1000 profit.

    • Alex – so why don’t you cull down the 5% of Game

      To be specific, I didn’t say 5% of game that works. Only 5% of game that is common-sense advice and/or true.

      Nothing game actually says “works” if you come from the frame of game. Game sells the idea that you can “consciously create attraction” or “make women attracted”.

      So even the 5% that they stole from common-sense and mainstream dating advice is only things that either:

      -> Works as a way of communicating your interested to an already attracted woman.

      -> Make her like you more as a person, not fuck you more… i.e. it’s stuff that’s proven to work for making you more likely to get an LTR, still doesn’t actually make women want to fuck you if they didn’t before.

  13. I didn’t have time to read all of this, but I did like the general message Alek gets across: Women are actually people.

    I agree wholeheartedly that most women will be nice to most non-creepy guys – they don’t want to fuck them but they’ll be nice because they’re nice people. Many of them know how to be friends with a guy without de-masculinizing him or disrespecting him as a man. It’s called being normal.

  14. Athol Kay presents legit and correct material. If its not your thing, fine, but trying to debunk it for having no merit is erroneous, reckless, and displays deep unawareness.

    If you can’t see the truth in his work, it is because you are blind, not because it’s not there. Be more open-minded, folks, and be more informed before you start spouting opinions.

      • Homeopathy presents legit and correct solutions. If its not your thing, fine, but trying to debunk it for having no merit is erroneous, reckless, and displays deep unawareness.

        If you can’t see the truth in homeopathy, it is because you are blind, not because it’s not there. Be more open-minded, folks, and be more informed before you start spouting opinions.

  15. Just giving my 2 cents. Think whatever you want. I would just encourage you to examine his material more closely instead of dismissing it outright. I believe you’d find such an endeavor worthwhile.

    I think it behooves a wise person to consider or observe different outlooks, in order to expand their overall wisdom. Those who refuse to do so, perhaps are not so wise at all.

    Further, I don’t know why you’d begrudge someone who wants to write material and sell it. Hs work is inexpensive, and no more than your typical useless romance novel/beach book or whatever other works of fiction. If somebody wants to spring a few bucks and check it out, what’s the harm? (esp with the return policy) It’s not like he is a real estate agent ripping off/lying to the public for thousands, or a “scammer” like Bernie Madoff who bilked people for millions. I think the term “scammer” is unfairly applied to Athol Kay here. Athol obviously believes in his theories and material, and so do a lot of others.

    Who’s to say it’s not right, or not true? The haters on this blog are no more of an authority on the matter than he is, or than I am.

    So instead of taking the hard-line stance of Athol being bad/evil and all his work being complete bullshit, maybe at least consider that it’s likely that at least SOME of it is true, and also consider that every person in the world could stand to learn more, and the only way to do that is through exploration.

    • Hs work is inexpensive, and no more than your typical useless romance novel/beach book or whatever other works of fiction.

      If it’s that useless, then by your own admission Athol Kay is egaging in fraud.

      If somebody wants to spring a few bucks and check it out, what’s the harm? (esp with the return policy) It’s not like he is a real estate agent ripping off/lying to the public for thousands, or a “scammer” like Bernie Madoff who bilked people for millions.

      It’s still fraud. My main concern is the mens rights movement, and Kay and the rest of the gamers are interfering with MRAs doing actual work to rollback feminism so Kay and the rest of the gamers are of more cocern to me than Madoff and some reach estate agents.

      Athol obviously believes in his theories and material, and so do a lot of others.

      That just makes him a member of a cult.

      Who’s to say it’s not right, or not true?

      Reality. That’s who.

  16. Pingback: Non-Monetary Dating Advice Scams | The Black Pill

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