50 comments on “There’s No Difference Between AVFM, The Dickless Mangina Project, And The Manuresphere

  1. Jack Donovan is definitely a White Nationalist. I can’t find evidence that he’s a vagina worshipper, though. He at least doesn’t seem to promise that heterosexual men get laid if they would “man up” more.

      • he has said “weak men should kill themselves.” He is as invested in male disposability as a trad con like Judgy Bitch. I don’t understand why this is so but it is undeniably so. While a very persuasive argument can be made that homophobia is a form of misandry just as racism-we don’t see “men” like Jack Donovan seeing other low status men as human. I’ve tried to have this argument with gay MRA Ginko–he even endorses Judgy Bitch. And bringing this up is what got me banned fro the so-called moderate Feminist Critics. I am distrustful of gay MRA’s and see them as penis owning women who are in the MRA for similar reasons as feMRA women. Until I start seeing them openly distancing themselves from Jack Donovan I have no reason to trust them and don’t consider them brothers who just happen to have a different sexual orientation. I will likely be labelled homophobe for this stance. Fine, I’ll likely be labelled misogynist for my views on feMRA’s…

        • So, if gay MRAs are penis owning women, then what are M to F transexuals? This oppression olymics stuff is hard. I support the trannies because the feminists hate them too.

          That being said I still think they need to talk to somebody. I dont get it.

        • hahahaha, I support the trannies because Roosh has sex with them, forgets to pay them and then says there are only 2 genders.

          Anyways, maybe you were missing my point-I was saying that many gay men seem to endorse the same points of feminism and see Het, Cis Men as evillle ™ –but never look into the mirror when it comes to their own biggotry.

        • BP, I wasn’t implying that only heterosexual men can pedestialize women. Anyway, in 2015, it’s only white women who can give birth to white men. 😉
          I was merely asking for a source where Jack Donovan ascribes an unproportional importance to women, for example. Kudos to you, Stoner for clearing this up.

        • Why is it fair to distrust gay people for being manginas, when straight men are manginas too? It is like you are singling them out.

          Seeing gay MRA’s as penis owning women? To be honest, your not doing yourself any favors with that stance. lolol You are going to get banned from a lot of places in these politically correct times.

          I think a lot of gay men are naive about women, as they deal with them less.

          Gay men are a group that have genuinely been treated badly, I can understand why they desperately allied with feminists in the past.

        • tamerlane,

          on the surface I would agree with you…

          yes, gay men have (historically) been treated badly…

          however, you have also dealt with Ginko. He recommended Jack Donovan and has also been an adherent supporter of Elam. I’ve tried several times to explain why they are bad guys. While I could appreciate a point that not all gays are like that. IE bad apples like Donovan and ignorant like Ginko, they don’t support my causes. Yes, they may have their causes as a bigger issue. But this is where the liberal have been wrong. One stigmatized group has no issue shitting on another group if they can get away with it (example Donovan.) So, yes, I will be distrustful of gay men. That isn’t hatred of gay men. I ain’t trying to take away their livelyhood or attack them. Funny how a gay man can be a reprehensible piece of shit but I have to deal with him like a woman. Same as Marcotte, you get called homophobe if you attack what Donovan says. But it is a-okay to shit on low status men. Notice how Futrelle has NEVER attacked Donovan-that’s because in his bully boy world, womyn and gays are magical creatures above reproach. They are the ones playing with two sets of rules not me.

        • Problem is, if straight men carry on being hostile to gay men, you are not going to get many decent gay MRA’s. You got to bear in mind even most straight “MRA’s” are pussy worshipers of one sort or another. Anyone who is a pussy worshiper always ends up attacking other men, due to their hatred of rival men.

          I would love to see some gay male push back in the LGBT. Feminists use gay men as sock puppets, and invade male gay bars, even gay men are not allowed their own spaces, while lesbians are.

        • In high school and college I had friends who were gay…not the flimsy wristed, slurred speech type of gay, they simply were attracted to the same sex. They didn’t much care for feminists either, as it constantly seemed like they were trying to co-opt the gay rights movement for themselves. Some gay men do act as you say, but most aren’t “women with penises”. They are men, tried and true, who just happen to agree with the fact that the male body is hella sexy.

        • “not the flimsy wristed”

          hahaha, here’s the “irony”–I would be far less likely to beat up an effeminate man than Donovan or some other manospherian type. I’ve only hit people that hit me first. And I’ve hit back hard. So if an effeminate man leaves me be, I wouldn’t hurt him. It’s the “masculine ” types like Donovan who are calling low status men pieces of shit. When I called gays women with penises, I should’ve been way more precise with my language. I should’ve said it’s evident that gays like Donovan get the same pass white womyn like Marcotte get. They get to say reprehensible shit without getting called out on it. That’s the real privilege. There are two sets of books. One which low status men like me who are held to rigorous standards. Then the other that womyn like Marcotte and gay Nazi’s like Donovan are held to….

          The same thing happened when a male feminist attacked me on your blog. I had to prove over and over that I wasn’t a “misogynist” and that Futrelle had twisted what I said…

        • Sorry, maybe I used a phrase that miscommunicated, I didn’t use “flimsy wristed” to insinuate you’d beat anyone up…just illustrating the weird hand gesture that stereotypical gay men use sometimes. I tend to like effeminate men. At least they don’t have huge muscles like jocks do.

          Okay, I understand what you meant by “women with penises” now. That makes sense.

          Everyone should be held to the same standard. No pussy passes, no orientation passes, etc. It’s like how everyone has to be kind and accepting to transsexuals or people with gender dysphoria (like myself, for any trolling lurkers who want to skew my words), even when they say “Die, cis scum” or state that normally sexed-gendered people are all in denial.

        • again there is more to what I’m saying than this…

          for example, how many gay incels are there? Not saying they don’t exist, But I’ve known gay men who boasted to me that they were waaaaay past the triple digits and didn’t even try. So a gay man telling a straight man getting laid is easy is similar to a feminist telling a dateless man that getting laid is easy and he must’ve forgtten to shower and brush his teeth. I should’ve been much more careful in what I said. There should be spaces were men get to discuss being men and women don’t get to control the conversation. Then there should be spaces where low status straight men can discuss things and gay men don’t get to control the conversation. The flip side is there would be spaces where gay men discuss things and straight men aren’t welcome. I’d just say that Jack Donovan has no place in a male positve space and it is very telling that a gay MRA would recommend him. Hence I stand by my position that it is not homophobic for a straight men to not want to deal with gay men or women when he discusses certain things. hat is a jab specifically at The Good Men Project. I should’ve been much more careful in my speaking. So for example, I wouldn’t form close friendships with gay men or women. I am distrustful of them for stated reasons. I also don’t believe that it is right to beat up a gay man because he is gay or a woman because she is a woman. It is okay to beat them up if they attack me or if they attack an innocent person and that is what is needed to stop the carnage. I AM explicitly trying to spell things out so there is no confusion to what I Am saying.

        • http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2011/12/mighty-white/


          again, how are they fucking different…

          one likes to rape low status men with a strap on and another with a flesh stick…

          It’s much easier if low status men get to have their discussions without women, white nationalists and homosexuals getting in the way and shitting all over them…

          Of course for uttering that out loud, I’m a homophobic, misogynistic anti-white bigot…

          (But none of these people did a fucking thing for me when I was shit on by WN’s or feminists.)

  2. “Are men as a class generally oppressed? I don’t think so, and I don’t know anybody who talks that way.”

    What the hell…? Did Elam recently have an aneurysm or something? 😕

    • I think he sees more money in become mainstream. If you look at a voice for men’s comment page, you will realize that more women comment now. It is being made a more female friendly space.

      I am not saying AVFM should be female hostile on purpose, but female friendly basically means censorship,as certain ideas that are truthful are considered taboo in female friendly spaces.

      • So, once again, it’s going to come down to the “little guy” blogs for any actual discussion…I knew it was coming, when JB was given so much leeway.

      • unfortunately, money really seems to be elam’s end goal. so much for the ideals of men’s rights.

        • This is what happens to all charities/rights advocacy groups, they become corrupted by market forces. It happened to AVFM faster than you think.

      • I think he sees more money in become mainstream. If you look at a voice for men’s comment page, you will realize that more women comment now. It is being made a more female friendly space.

        I’m noticing this is a trend in everything from AVFM, to the Dickless Mangina Project, to the dating advice industry. Pretend to be pro-male for clickbait, then replace your audience with women to monetize them.

  3. “I don’t care about men. I just want to see feminism fall into the same disrepute as racism. Fuckin’ sue me.”

    What is the point of hating feminism if you don’t hate it for the harm women do to me with it?

    Men’s rights Edmonton is a group allied with AVFM. Fidelbogan is a anti MGTOW mangina promoted by avfm.

    • What is the point of hating feminism if you don’t hate it for the harm women do to me with it?

      There isn’t any, but until several years ago most anti-feminism consisted of two groups:

      1. Tradcons who were against feminism because of abortion. They would support feminism if not for the abortion issue.
      2. Conspiracy theorists/Anti-semites/etc. who thought feminism was a Jewish/Illuminati/NWO/whatever conspiracy. They had no disagreement with the feminist platform, but were only opposed to it because of who they thought was behind it.

      Then you had the fathers’ rights groups and similar groups who actually hated the harm feminism was doing to men in a distant third. AVFM is run by old men like Paul Elam who come from the old days of anti-feminism where they didn’t actually oppose the feminist platform except for minor parts of it. They could get away with this because they avoided most of the damage feminism caused by being old. Younger men don’t have that luxury.

      • This was the great lesson I learned from IMF-the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. I remember how I (we) politely tried to inform Elam of this and all he could do was throw back personal insults. He’s far worse than inneffective. He is doing horrendous damage to real men’s rights.

        • Paul Elam is a control freak, who is not open to new ideas or criticisms, he just goes. “I am sick of armchair quarterbacks!” when people gave genuine helpful advice.

          He is a hyper macho closed minded idiot.

    • No offense, but how can you expose that? Is it even considered a secret at this point? Only the dumbest of the dumbest manurespherians are still in denial as to the fact they’re white vaginationalists.

      • Lmao. Yeah but some folks are so blinded by the allure of “game”, they don’t realize how bigoted these guys are – it’s almost similar to the folks at Fox News.

  4. Don’t forget the Dickless Man Project also had manospherian white Nationalist Chuck Ross, who is a Heartiste groupie and was named-checked by John Derbyshire himself, write for them. Chuck Ross now writes for The Daily Caller, which is a more mainstream Republican online journal, showing how even mainstream right wing isn’t that different. Chuck Ross can be found here: http://www.twitter.com/chuckrossdc

  5. you will find this entertaining…


    he is also a fan of Jack Donovan

    he has said he “is a white nationalist on paper.”

    I suppose that means he agrees with most of it…

    Or he is just a slippery politician, saying things that can mean many things, licking his finger putting it in the air and seeing which way the wind blows…

    but yes, I bring this up as a quasi white nationalist/dark enlightenment figure HAS written for AVfM.

    • Not just him. Seen it happen in other cases as well. Who was that one guy that runs The Spearhead? He got divorced [raped], made all sorts of posts on how women take advantage of men, the kangeroo divorce courts, etc.

      What does he do? Goes and gets remarried, knocks her up almost immediately. And the woman is a self-proclaimed feminist. The same thing with that Elusive Wapiti guy. Got divorced, described in his posts how his wife was restricting access to his children and how much money she was wasting at his expense. He also made posts about the status of men and women’s behavior. Naturally, he goes and get married again and has two more kids.

      These guys talk all sorts of good shit, but they don’t follow what they preach. In the end, they can’t bear living without a woman in their lives. Oh yeah, and then there was Mark Minter, the guy who spewed all sorts of hate filled posts about women then married some 30-something single mother.

      I think in the end these guys are only doing and saying what they do out of bitterness and longing, none of them really give a damn about men or the tings women do to them as long as they can have a woman to keep them company. Its pathetic.

      • Do women control these men? I think the answer is yes. That fool who runs the speahead posts articles about how unhealthy anal sex is for gay men. (Why does he think about it so much? Not getting any action from his feminist wife?)

        This is misdirected anger, he hates on other men and scapegoats them. Gay men have nothing to do with heterosexual divorce and feminists hating on men.

        He hates on gay men, but marries the enemy.

        He is going to be fucked by the system hard. Maybe this feminist cunt is marrying him to take him out of circulation? She has the power to do him in.

        Also I Am FUCKING Pissed off at men marrying and having kids, because it is not fair on the kids. I grew up in a single mother household it was rotten for me. Every married man now risks creating a single mother household and more child abuse.

        • Lol. Why the hell does he say anal sex is bad for anyone, much less gay men? I love self-righteous types who try to dictate what is or isn’t something that consenting adults can do in the privacy of their homes…

          So if you’re against marriage that much, are you also against human reproduction? Or pro-artificial wombs/non-married cohabitation/something else?

  6. “Lol. Why the hell does he say anal sex is bad for anyone, much less gay men? I love self-righteous types who try to dictate what is or isn’t something that consenting adults can do in the privacy of their homes…

    So if you’re against marriage that much, are you also against human reproduction? Or pro-artificial wombs/non-married cohabitation/something else?

    It is more risky, but so what? consenting adults can take risks.

    A lot of tradcon types project their rage at other groups, liberals, gays etc… because they see their women as brainwashed angels.

    The fact tradcons are willing to marry feminists is very telling to me. I have never provided a woman with resources, marrying a feminist is aidding and abetting her.

    I wonder if Paul Elam is taking orders from his wife?

    I can understand the desire to pair bond, I still have those instincts, but there is no excuse really. Also if a man has to marry, he can at least refrain from attacking MGTOW. He can at least have the respect for the movement not to try and take the name.

    Maybe Paul’s attack on MGTOW wasn’t calculated at all? Perhaps it was from pure rage and rejection? Deep down he knows he sold out, that he can’t be free anymore. Dean Esmay is a slave paying child support too, he also has been nasty to MGTOW.

    As I have said before Paul seems like an impulsive person. I think he plays it by ear a lot. does thinks recklessly.

    I can see a pattern of bitter old men, men repeating the same mistakes over and over again, they want to see the younger generation crushed by feminism and females too.

    I want to see the next generation of boys escape my fate. I want the next generation of boys/men to be free, and not be burdened with feminist collective guitling of all men.

    • I also come from a single parent family couldn’t agree more. I’ve always felt like my mother ‘robbed’ me of something by deciding to have me and knowing that my father would not be around. I’ve seen one blogger describe single mothers as child abusers because of this selfishness.

      With the laws as they currently are, even if I wanted children I’d argue you basically leaving it up the mothers control seeing as she has full legal support to evict you from their lives and still keep you as a wallet.

      That’s another problem I have with all these marry-up types and nationalists. There is no way to insure family stability since there is no commitment and all the power on the woman’s end. But these men insist on it anyways. It is both stupid and selfish.

        • Mothers are more likely to abuse their kids, period. Single mothers are worse. If a single mother brings new men into her family then the likelihood of abuse goes way up.

          Biological fathers are what is safest for kids.

      • Married women living with “intact” families also nag and grind on their kids and husbands. I lived through that with my own family and extended family. It’s not just a fact of single mothers, even if the statistics tilt one way or the other. How else best to explain how this culture of divorce spawned from traditional households?

        Furthermore, the so-called “attractive” men (those at top 10% of female preference) all complain about their nagging wives, girlfriends and mistresses. Being attractive to women is no source of relief from this behavior, even before you get to divorce and child support.

        I agree with your third paragraph about marry-up and man up and nationalist types. They are part of the Misandrist Dating Advice Distraction. Dalrock recently confirmed himself as one of those on his blog.

        Your arguments on attraction on your other posts, however, have been thoroughly discredited here and other websites with research. See the blog “Human Mating” for science links. See Alek Novy’s posts in the comments on this blog.

        • Life outcomes for intact families are better than single mother ones.

          Yes women can still nag and abuse when she keeps her family intact, not much the man can do about it, as she can just phone the police if he tries to stop her.

          Yet the sort of woman who is willing to kick the father away, is clearly insane, so she is far more likely to abuse the kids.

  7. (Here is a comment from driver sue. The fact she promotes game is very interesting to me. I consider game the biggest threat to MRA/MGTOW to be honest.)

    driversuz Mod Obsidian • 2 days ago
    I don’t think I said what you read into my words.

    1. Until feminism came along and tried to control dialogue between men, the parts of Game that are actually time-tested wisdom, were passed around freely among men. It’s true that Game restarted those conversations in a much needed manner. I don’t see how my previous comment contradicts your point.

    2. I’m not suggesting that those women can’t think for themselves, that they are “innocent,” or that they don’t want sex; that would paint them as caricatures. What I’m saying is that the vast majority of women AND men follow their culture, questioning very little, even when they’re pretty sure it’s not quite right – especially young people who aren’t yet sure who they really are. I very intentionally avoided saying that PUAs “prey upon” innocent women, because that would promote a one-dimensional stereotype of both PUAs and women. My point was merely that PUAs are part of the culture that encourages relatively moral women to (pretty much) inadvertently step up onto the carousel, not in search of all the cock they can get, but in search of Prince Charming. The smart and/or lucky ones step right back off when they realize where they’re heading, but it goes against the peer and media conditioning of their whole lives. Doing so takes the sort of individuality that society doesn’t teach girls. Good Girls and Bad Girls have peer support; girls who think for themselves, don’t. PUAs are among the peers who make promiscuity appear appealing, even to women who aren’t enthusiastic about it. Yes I’m referring to the multitude of young, directionless, leaderless women who have yet to figure out their priorities. I’m also not suggesting that PUAs and other single men are responsible for the well being of those women. I’m simply stating that PUAs are among the many negative influences these women encounter.

  8. Hey, cool site man.

    I just found it through Sleazy’s blog. I like the logical thinking. Most blogs have a hard time doing such a thing these days.

    I just noticed that Elam is doing interviews with Roosh these days? He’s lost his mind in my opinion!

    Lol at “Manuresphere”. Very accurate though!

      • No, I haven’t. Thanks. I’ll check it out. The author of this blog does a good job from what I’ve read so far. Very no-nonsense and I like his sense of humour.

        I really didn’t know much about AFvM until today. I couldn’t tell if I was on AFvM, Roosh V’s site or returnofkings. AFvM is a bullshit site in my opinion. Elam is just as bad as Roosh V.

        Although I believe there is some credence to feminism and westernization affecting men’s love life today, most manosphere retards are too dumb to realize that women are just grossed out by them.

        Take Roosh for example. He sucks with women anywhere he goes. Coincidence, or are women just not into him?

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