16 comments on “Pak Protectors Going Their Own Way

  1. Sounds like a very interesting and complex series, something along the lines of Hogan or Asimov. Will have to get it.

    Just to clarify, this species is similar to clown fish? From your description it seems children are neutral-sexed, which all grow into female-sexed breeders, and then when they eat from the Tree a breeder will become male-sexed? If so, it’s a bit like the Lilith’s Brood trilogy by O.E. Butler, which is also an amazing read involving the decline of humanity and the differences that take place when highly advanced alien lifeforms with vastly separate physiology and reproductive capabilities take us into their families.

    • Pak children and breeders are Homo Habilis so there are both male and female Pak children and breeders. Pak protectors are “genderless”, but they look male to us. The relationship between Pak protectors and Pak breeders is similar to that between men and women. (Instead of “women and children first”, a Pak protector would think, “breeders and children first”.). And that is true from how both tradcons and feminists think men should act.

      The Known Space universe is large and includes more than the Pak. The relevant books for the Pak are Protector, the Ringworld novels, and Of Worlds novels.

      • Cool. So it’s more of a society where sexual dimorphism is in the 2 first lifestages/rungs, and it gets eliminated as a Protector?

        I’ve been looking for a new series to read. Seems I’ve found it. Thanks, BP.

        • The Pak are part of Niven and Pournelle’s ‘Known Space’, a defined universe in which many tales can take place. The parts detailed here are spread through multiple series of books (Known Space is biiig). If you love idea driven sci-fi then you really will love Known Space.

          I won’t get into spoilers, but I think that there’s another analogy in the books. Teela Brown might be used as an example of a ’10’ woman who wanders clueless through life…because she can. She can, because endless ‘lucky’ things happen to her (because endless manginas pay her way, take the consequences of crap decisions etc etc).

          Another one might be the Man – Kzin conflict. Maybe the clever monkeys are intended to be beta-males that overcome the alpha-warrior-Kzin via trickery(?) The series having been written by nerds after all.

          I love the books. Started reading them thirty five years ago…only just twigged the Man-Kzin thing. Shame on me.

          Teela Brown (big time spoilers) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teela_Brown

  2. If some men who are going their own way chose to set up colonies in space, a similar situation would arise where the descendants of the MGTOW colonists would be on a higher level than women and manginas from Earth.

    Using artificial wombs, or similarly minded, colony-oriented women?

    • Sorry it took so long, I hope you’re still active on this thread.
      Protectors live for thousands of years, provided that they have a constant source of the virus that lives in ‘tree-of-life’. With their incredible intellect and technology, this is no problem at all.
      Their skill in the life sciences would enable them to re-create the female XX chromosome with ease, if the situation demanded.
      To crib from Arthur C. Clarke, Pak technology “is indistinguishable from magic.”

  3. Since you have brought up a nerd subject:

    Do Pak Protectors have souls?

    In Ringworld, the Puppeteer alien character Nessus makes a strange assertion that the Puppeteers fear death so much because their scientists have proven conclusively that Puppeteers have no “immortal part” that survives death, which sounds like the human concept of the immortal soul. Nessus then says that he “doesn’t have the right” to say whether humans have immortal parts or not.

    If humans have souls, and if they descended from the Pak species, then do Pak Breeders and Protectors have souls?

    • In Known Space stories characters do lie so Nessus may be lying. Beyond that, I doubt that Puppeteer science can conclusively determine whether they have souls or not. The Puppeteers built the Quantum II Hyperdrive without understanding how they did it so they can’t even build a second one. Since the Puppeteers can’t even do something as simple as that, it’s doubtful that they could determine whether they have souls or not.

      Presumably Pak have souls if humans have souls. This is complicated by the fact that in the Known Space universe, the Garden of Eden did happen but it has something to do with Pak protectors. That’s clear from the novel, Protector. That probably means that “God” was really the last surviving Pak protector on Earth.

      Then there are the Kdaptists among the Kzin who believe that their founder was told by God that humans were created in his image but not Kzin. Presumably the Pak and the Ringworld hominids would be included as created in God’s image if that was the case.

  4. I feel bad for Niven and other science fiction writers of his generation, born in the 1930’s and 1940’s, like Jerry Pournelle, Ben Bova, David Brin, Greg Bear, Vernor Vinge and Gregory Benford. They grew up reading Asimov-Clarke-Heinlein, witnessed the Apollo moon landings and based many of their stories on the premise that we had entered a permanent, technologically progressive “space age.” I doubt any of them anticipated that they would live for decades AFTER the space age came and went.

    • While I think a lot of science fiction was overly optimistic when it came to space exploration in the near term, (overestimating technological progress in the short term, while underestimating technological progress in the long term is a common problem), the fact is we should be farther along in space exploration than we are now. Effectively, we have regressed when it comes to space exploration. Battery and supercapacitor tech is another area we should be farther along.

  5. The thrint are a poor metaphor for women. The thrint were a different species and thus have genetic interests entirely separate from those that they conquered. But women are going to potentially have sons, brothers and a father who she shares genetic interests with. There’s an old saying that “nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There’s too much fraternizing with the enemy.”

    Nor do women seem to have much power at the grand scale. If you look at our political and corporate rulers they tend to be men, not because of “discrimination” as feminists say but because men are better at politics and business.

    • But women are going to potentially have sons, brothers and a father who she shares genetic interests with.

      I can think of millions of examples of women prioritizing the interests of women they are not related to over the interests of male relatives.

      Nor do women seem to have much power at the grand scale. If you look at our political and corporate rulers they tend to be men

      This is the apex and frontman fallacies.

  6. Pingback: Libertarianism Is Becoming Another Form Of Gynosocialism | The Black Pill

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